PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

[picard102]

Mayonnaise, cakes, cookies, pasta, some breads, breaded frozen stuff, baking mixes, other desserts, etc. I wouldn't know how to put a number on it, but a large percentage of items in any grocery store have one of those two things in them, all purchased at inflated prices to subsidize relatively wealthy farmers at the expense of hard-working grocery consumers.

Got a source to show how wealthy farmers are?
Let's start with dairy farmers. Best I can find is one would pull $90k a year. The profit on milk was only 80c a liter in 2022. Not sure if you've ever been on a farm, but I doubt most at the grocery store in downtown Toronto is what I would consider working "harder" than a farmer.

 

[evandyk]

They're wealthy because of the land. Well, that and the quota, but hopefully that quota will one day be worthless.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There is value to retaining agricultural self-sufficiency as a matter of national policy.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Interesting look at Dairy Farms in Canada from Wikipedia:

So look at the number of cows per farm, and production per farm. Anyone else spot an issue?

Canada's dairy cartel is essentially broken into the 3 groups, Newfoudland, Eastern Canada (ON. QB, NS, NB and PEI) and Western Canada.

Notice how much lower the production per farm is for the Eastern Cartel? The number of cattle per farm in the West is just shy of double that of the East, while NF is higher still. Hmmm

Edit to add:

USDA ERS - Scale Economies Provide Advantages to Large Dairy Farms

Large dairy operations have significant financial advantages over small and midsized farms, primarily because of lower average production costs per pound of milk produced. As a result, milk cows and production are increasingly moving to much larger dairy farms. Farms with at least 1,000 head...

www.ers.usda.gov

The U.S. is seeing the average dairy farm shift to 1,000 head of cattle per operation, with some 5x that size.

Now, I'm not going to endorse that, as their are environmental and animal welfare consequences to operations of that scale.........

But it does suggest that Canada's industry is out of line on typical herd size.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is value to retaining agricultural self-sufficiency as a matter of national policy.

AoD

We're a big country with a lot of agrarian land and a relatively small population. We'll always be self-sufficient at a macro level. All this protectionism isn't to ensure we can feed ourselves. It mostly to protect incomes and maybe certain rural lifestyles. Consumer and farmers in the Global South foot the bill though.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Interesting look at Dairy Farms in Canada from Wikipedia:

View attachment 538364

So look at the number of cows per farm, and production per farm. Anyone else spot an issue?

Canada's dairy cartel is essentially broken into the 3 groups, Newfoudland, Eastern Canada (ON. QB, NS, NB and PEI) and Western Canada.

Notice how much lower the production per farm is for the Eastern Cartel? The number of cattle per farm in the West is just shy of double that of the East, while NF is higher still. Hmmm

Edit to add:

USDA ERS - Scale Economies Provide Advantages to Large Dairy Farms

Large dairy operations have significant financial advantages over small and midsized farms, primarily because of lower average production costs per pound of milk produced. As a result, milk cows and production are increasingly moving to much larger dairy farms. Farms with at least 1,000 head...

www.ers.usda.gov

The U.S. is seeing the average dairy farm shift to 1,000 head of cattle per operation, with some 5x that size.

Now, I'm not going to endorse that, as their are environmental and animal welfare consequences to operations of that scale.........

But it does suggest that Canada's industry is out of line on typical herd size.

You are probably looking at the difference between family farm vs. agribusiness.

We're a big country with a lot of agrarian land and a relatively small population. We'll always be self-sufficient at a macro level. All this protectionism isn't to ensure we can feed ourselves. It mostly to protect incomes and maybe certain rural lifestyles. Consumer and farmers in the Global South foot the bill though.

Sure, instead of feeding ourselves, how about continuity in the independent means of production? In any case, I'd argue that the issue here isn't the price of locally produced, non-exotic food per se - but the level of income at the low-medium end of the general population.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

We're a big country with a lot of agrarian land and a relatively small population. We'll always be self-sufficient at a macro level.

While true, in a volumetric sense; we actually aren't self-sufficient in our winter/spring seasons right now; and we are regionally not self-sufficient in various types of foods, since we do a great deal of large-scale cash crops.

To be clear, I don't think the dairy or chicken or pork cartels are there to help with this, nor do I think they are the right tool; but I would say that I see some value in answering what if questions around supply chain issues w/the U.S. These could be of the pandemic or other border hardening type variety or of the climate change slashes production in California variety. Either way, I'd like to see us be a bit more 'practically' self sufficient.

(this means greater greenhouse/cavern growing of vegetables in particular); greater crop diversity, especially on the prairies, and also, in respect of meat, more slaughterhouses.

 

[lenaitch]

Sure the message is overly simplified and partisan, but let's be clear, the food pricing issue in Canada is a lack of competition in retail, and in wholesale (particularly, dairy, pork, and chicken) which are supply managed.

Pork is not supply managed in Canada.

Mayonnaise, cakes, cookies, pasta, some breads, breaded frozen stuff, baking mixes, other desserts, etc. I wouldn't know how to put a number on it, but a large percentage of items in any grocery store have one of those two things in them, all purchased at inflated prices to subsidize relatively wealthy farmers at the expense of hard-working grocery consumers.

Hmm, according to StatsCan, the two supply managed sectors shown Table 3 are a fair bit down the list.

Canada's farms were more profitable in 2020 than in 2015

Information on farm operating revenues and expenses help paint a portrait of Canada's agricultural businesses. This article sheds light on farm profitability (by revenues class, operating arrangement, total farm area and farm type) and some potential driving forces behind the profitability...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

Trying to find a credible site on 'how much does a farmer make', this was the closest.

The Daily — Total income of farm families, 2019

The average total income of farm families operating a single farm in Canada was $163,098 in 2019, down 1.3% from 2018, according to taxation records.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

If you look at Chart 3, it seems to show that Dairy income looks to be pretty middling. The text indicates that dairy farmers had a notable increase in the reporting year, but it doesn't say from what to what. Maybe I needed to dig deeper into the page.

It appears from that chart that we should be yelling at the potato farmers for the price of our Miss Vicki's.

One item people may note, for all sectors of farming, is the significant percentage 'off farm' income plays into it. It is tricky to come up with a clean picture of agricultural income at the farm level. Some farms are incorporate businesses, some are not. In addition to off-farm income, there is also on-farm labour that is non-employee family derived.

Notice how much lower the production per farm is for the Eastern Cartel? The number of cattle per farm in the West is just shy of double that of the East, while NF is higher still. Hmmm

Ya, I don't know how to interpret that. Newfoundland has very little arable land so it would make sense to have large capacity lots. Interesting that a government page says they have over 11000 head in 2020. There could be a proactive provincial government policy at play here in light of significant challenges they face importing perishable products. As for the others, it almost seems that the various provincial marketing boards favour different profiles, with Eastern Canada favouring smaller operations. It could also be that land costs in Ontario prohibit the establishment of the western-style herds. I really don't know.

 

[Northern Light]

Pork is not supply managed in Canada.

Valid, point, my bad, corrected above.

 

[picard102]

They're wealthy because of the land. Well, that and the quota, but hopefully that quota will one day be worthless.

Yes, the very desirable middle of nowhere land with a dairy operation on site that now becomes a yoke around your neck.

Houses in Toronto sell for more than some of these farms in Ontario.

 

[lenaitch]

Yes, the very desirable middle of nowhere land with a dairy operation on site that now becomes a yoke around your neck.

Houses in Toronto sell for more than some of these farms in Ontario.

I would challenge you to find an operating dairy farm - including quota - for sale in southern Ontario for much less than $10Mn.

I wonder what's worse, having the yoke of a dairy quota or the yoke of student debt.

 

[jje1000]

While true, in a volumetric sense; we actually aren't self-sufficient in our winter/spring seasons right now; and we are regionally not self-sufficient in various types of foods, since we do a great deal of large-scale cash crops.

Interesting- not self-sufficient in terms of basics, or not self-sufficient because people expect corn and peaches in February?

 

[Northern Light]

Interesting- not self-sufficient in terms of basics, or not self-sufficient because people expect corn and peaches in February?

Certainly there is room to eat more seasonally, but evidence indicates you don't stop needing all the vitamins on offer in fruit/veg just because its February.

A diet of just meat/potato/onion/carrot all winter, is not ideal.

One need not aim to grow citrus in Canada, or expect the same range/bounty of produce in winter as summer, but some measure of balance would still require we up production of some items (tomatoes would be an obvious choice), and indeed we ought to have some more cold-hardy crops and some more early spring ones in greater supply.

 

[picard102]

I would challenge you to find an operating dairy farm - including quota - for sale in southern Ontario for much less than $10Mn.

I wonder what's worse, having the yoke of a dairy quota or the yoke of student debt.

I know of one in Stayner that sold for $4 million, that was 100 acres, with a herd and a quota.
Most I've looked at cap out at $7million.

 

[kEiThZ]

Certainly there is room to eat more seasonally, but evidence indicates you don't stop needing all the vitamins on offer in fruit/veg just because its February.

Sure. But generally food security policies are designed for basic sustenance. To ensure we get the calories we need to leave. Not quality of life. Otherwise, we are going to be paying higher prices for literally all the food we consume.