Peterborough Area and Highway 7 Corridor studies

[lenaitch]

While their populations might have stagnated, I'm not sure I would agree that places like Madoc, Marmora and Tweed are "shadows of the towns they once were". Many towns in the route area owe their history to now-depleted mineral extraction, forestry and marginal farming. Those communities where Hwy 7 forms their main street would have to be bypassed. How does that help their future, other to turn them into bedroom communities? For where? I would argue that residents from corridor communities that already commute for employment do so north-south to the larger centres along Lake Ontario. I really can't see an expanded Hwy 7 bleeding off much commercial traffic from the 401.

 

[mrmadoc]

While their populations might have stagnated, I'm not sure I would agree that places like Madoc, Marmora and Tweed are "shadows of the towns they once were". Many towns in the route area owe their history to now-depleted mineral extraction, forestry and marginal farming. Those communities where Hwy 7 forms their main street would have to be bypassed. How does that help their future, other to turn them into bedroom communities? For where? I would argue that residents from corridor communities that already commute for employment do so north-south to the larger centres along Lake Ontario. I really can't see an expanded Hwy 7 bleeding off much commercial traffic from the 401.

Highway 7 would bleed off all of the Toronto-Ottawa traffic from the 401. An expanded highway 7 would be the only logical route to take as far as travel time goes. The expansion would essentially bring Madoc, Marmora, and Tweed closer to Peterborough which is only set to grow after the completion of the 407. Upper Canada Minerals, Drain Bros, IKO, Unimen, and others have operating mines along the corridor and the battery metals mine, the McBride project is in the planning stages. Madoc's main Street was bypassed in the 70's and it has only helped the community grow north and spurred new commercial development along the highway. The main reason for completing the highway, however, is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and the communites along the way would benefit as a result.

 

[lenaitch]

Those are quarrying operations but I take your point. Madoc and Tweed are much closer to Belleville?Quinte West in terms of urban centres, but I defer since I don't live out there.
I'm not aware of the traffic flow between Toronto and Ottawa to comment on how much traffic would be bled off, but anecdotally, 416 doesn't strike me as overly busy.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Those are quarrying operations but I take your point. Madoc and Tweed are much closer to Belleville?Quinte West in terms of urban centres, but I defer since I don't live out there.
I'm not aware of the traffic flow between Toronto and Ottawa to comment on how much traffic would be bled off, but anecdotally, 416 doesn't strike me as overly busy.

A lot of people take 7 to avoid the hellhole that is the 401. I usually take 7 to Ottawa as I find it such a less stressful drive than the 401.. Not that I go to Ottawa very often, maybe once every 2 years or so.

 

[Transportfan]

Now that were on the topic of Hwy. 7, I wonder why it was simply widened east of Peterborough when there's a freeway through Peterborough and points west via Hwy. 115. I also find it odd that 115 isn't designated as 7, rather than having 7 routed northwest through Lindsay.

Also, will Hwy. 7 be downloaded from Hwy. 12 west after the 407 is completed?

 

[44 North]

Those are quarrying operations but I take your point. Madoc and Tweed are much closer to Belleville?Quinte West in terms of urban centres, but I defer since I don't live out there.
I'm not aware of the traffic flow between Toronto and Ottawa to comment on how much traffic would be bled off, but anecdotally, 416 doesn't strike me as overly busy.

Unimin is pretty real mining. Sure it's non-metallic product being brought out and refined, but still an industrial resource and active mining. I'm fairly certain all that glass you see in new condos contains some percentage of the mineral unearthed north of Hwy 7.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Now that were on the topic of Hwy. 7, I wonder why it was simply widened east of Peterborough when there's a freeway through Peterborough and points west via Hwy. 115. I also find it odd that 115 isn't designated as 7, rather than having 7 routed northwest through Lindsay.

Also, will Hwy. 7 be downloaded from Hwy. 12 west after the 407 is completed?

Likely not.

7 really does need some rationalization between Peterborough and Markham though. If you ask me Bloomington Road / Goodwood Road should be re designated as 7 beetween Port Perry and the 404, with the southern portion of the highway along the 407 downloaded.

 

[lenaitch]

Likely not.

7 really does need some rationalization between Peterborough and Markham though. If you ask me Bloomington Road / Goodwood Road should be re designated as 7 beetween Port Perry and the 404, with the southern portion of the highway along the 407 downloaded.

Bloomington Rd. east from Hwy 48 (and continuing north and east as Durham 47) was previously Hwy 47 before it was downloaded. I have a hard time seeing the province picking it back up. If I recall correctly, the mass of downloading during the Harris years was packaged in with some uploading and other transfers to make them at least appear as revenue-neutral. Provincial highway or portions that were felt to be more of a local or regional interest were the target (or at least alleged) but increasingly, the functional role of many provincial highways and their county/regional counterparts has become increasingly blurred in many areas.

 

[innsertnamehere]

That's only about an 8km overlap, most of old 47 isn't used as a provincial corridor and made sense for downloading. It's essentially the main road to service Uxbridge, it doesn't provide much of any through traffic.

Bloomington / Goodwood road however is a major regional road in terms of traffic. Lots of people coming from York Region and going to Peterborough, Lindsay, Bobcaygeon, etc., taking it. All on the backs of Durham taxpayers.

It services provincial traffic functions, and thus should be a provincial roadway. I'm sure there are a lot of roads like this around the province, but it's one that I'm familiar with and to me would be a very rational move as a realignment of Highway 7 which has long since stopped serving a provincial purpose.

 

[lenaitch]

That's only about an 8km overlap, most of old 47 isn't used as a provincial corridor and made sense for downloading. It's essentially the main road to service Uxbridge, it doesn't provide much of any through traffic.

Bloomington / Goodwood road however is a major regional road in terms of traffic. Lots of people coming from York Region and going to Peterborough, Lindsay, Bobcaygeon, etc., taking it. All on the backs of Durham taxpayers.

It services provincial traffic functions, and thus should be a provincial roadway. I'm sure there are a lot of roads like this around the province, but it's one that I'm familiar with and to me would be a very rational move as a realignment of Highway 7 which has long since stopped serving a provincial purpose.

I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't see it happening. I suppose in the beginning the alignment of Hwy 7 made sense, connection communities north of the lake (and Hwy 2); Guelph, Markham, Lindsay, P'boro, etc. before Hwy 401 existed. You are correct that there are other municipal routes that serve inter-regional traffic. The combintion of municipal (county) and provincial routes between Barrie/Orillia and Ottawa - through Bancroft - is a commonly used route. One could also make the argument that Airport Rd. serves Wasaga Beach/Collingwood on the back of Peel Region and Dufferin County.
Although I'm not aware of traffic data, I remain convinced that some creative bookkeeping was used in the downloading process. How else do they explain the patchwork downloading of Hwy 9 or, near Orillia, downloading a stranded ~6km piece of Hwy 12. Other than the fact that it parallels Hwy 400, it serves different flows and confuses the heck out of tourists.

 

[MisterF]

Speaking of highway ownership, the entire Ontario highway network needs to be reorganized from the ground up, IMO. Right now it's a confusing mess, with little to no functional difference between provincial highways and county/regional roads, numbers repeated over and over around the province, numbers changing for no apparent reason when ownership changes...some roads even appear to intersect with themselves. There's no good reason why Airport Road should change numbers three times between Mississauga and Stayner, or that Highway 7 should change to 107 through Peel Region and then back to 7 again, or that 7 should intersect with another 7 in Omemee. Locals and tourists alike shouldn't have to be concerned with which municipality they're in or which government owns which section of road.

Other provinces have numbering systems that make a lot more sense. Since most of our road network is owned by counties and regions, the only way to make it make any sense is to incorporate all the regional/county roads into a province wide numbering and signage system. That would eliminate all the duplication, make ownership irrelevant to the travelling public, and vastly simplify navigation.

 

[lenaitch]

There is a very good reason numbers change - it's called local authority; them's that pay the bills get to make the decisions. Local politicians would be rightfully affeared if they heard that the province wanted to 'coordinate' road numbering. Lately, they are up to their eyeballs in provincial dictats and 'efficiencies'. We often seem to want the government do more but insist on paying less. Although the more improved and inter-connecting municipal roads are county/regional, I would argue that "most" of our road network in southern Ontario is owned by lower tier municipalities and designated as either concession or sideroad numbers (warning - they repeat, repeatedly).
I would argue that most people don't even know that Airport Rd. has a number and that it changes. I was under the understanding that most travellers navigate these days by GPS and just follow voice commands or the line on the screen. The locals already know where they are and they usually don't care what the number is since most roads have either an unofficial or official name.

Edit - It is difficult to compare Ontario with other Canadian jurisdictions since local governance structures vary. For example, in the Maritimes, counties have no administrative governance; hence, no tax base, hence, no county roads (outside of a few regional entities). Their numbered routes are, in fact, provincial routes, owned and maintained by the province, much like non-municipal roads in northern Ontario.

 

[Dan416]

My question is why counties/regional municipalities even have numbered roads?

In Peel Region, I don't think anyone knows the regional road #s as they are not easy to find and they're not on the street signs.

I've noticed in Waterloo regions they actually have the regional road numbers on the street signs, but do people there use the numbers?

 

[MisterF]

There is a very good reason numbers change - it's called local authority; them's that pay the bills get to make the decisions. Local politicians would be rightfully affeared if they heard that the province wanted to 'coordinate' road numbering. Lately, they are up to their eyeballs in provincial dictats and 'efficiencies'. We often seem to want the government do more but insist on paying less. Although the more improved and inter-connecting municipal roads are county/regional, I would argue that "most" of our road network in southern Ontario is owned by lower tier municipalities and designated as either concession or sideroad numbers (warning - they repeat, repeatedly).
I would argue that most people don't even know that Airport Rd. has a number and that it changes. I was under the understanding that most travellers navigate these days by GPS and just follow voice commands or the line on the screen. The locals already know where they are and they usually don't care what the number is since most roads have either an unofficial or official name.

Edit - It is difficult to compare Ontario with other Canadian jurisdictions since local governance structures vary. For example, in the Maritimes, counties have no administrative governance; hence, no tax base, hence, no county roads (outside of a few regional entities). Their numbered routes are, in fact, provincial routes, owned and maintained by the province, much like non-municipal roads in northern Ontario.

Oh I know the reason that the numbering is so messed up, I'm just saying that it's not a good reason. If having such a decentralized highway system is causing the numbering to not make any sense, then it's arguably up to the province to make it make sense, regardless of who pays the bills. There's plenty of precedent for this - the province created regional government, amalgamated municipalities , protected the Greenbelt and Oak Ridges Moraine, and created a growth plan that all municipalities have to comply with. These are all initiatives that, for better or worse, individual municipalities would never have undertaken on their own.

Yes you could argue that the local concession roads owned by lower tier municipalities make up the majority of the road system, but those roads are very local in their use. They're feeder roads; people rarely travel on them for more than one or two concessions before turning onto a higher level road. They're the rural equivalent of local residential streets in the city. County and regional roads, OTOH, are routinely used for long distances.

Sure most people use GPS to navigate now but that's no reason to have such messy highway numbering.

My question is why counties/regional municipalities even have numbered roads?

In Peel Region, I don't think anyone knows the regional road #s as they are not easy to find and they're not on the street signs.

I've noticed in Waterloo regions they actually have the regional road numbers on the street signs, but do people there use the numbers?

You're right that in urban areas most regional road numbers don't seem to serve much purpose. But they're more important in rural areas.

I think part of the reason that the roads aren't referred to by their numbers more often is because any given route is so short, is repeated so many times throughout the province, and most people have only a vague idea of where one county ends and another begins. When we have absurd situations like Regional Road 2 intersecting with another Regional Road 2 in four different locations in downtown Oshawa, the whole concept of regional road numbering becomes pretty much meaningless.

 

[lenaitch]

I imagine one of the reasons to use numbers is to simplify administration of the road system. Even the QEW has a number internal to the MTO but it is not posted. Flights are numbered, trains are numbered, etc.
The multiple use of 2 in Oshawa is weird, although it seems that the north/south Simcoe St. is Regional Road 2 and the region has designated east/west King St./Bond St. as "Hwy 2", still under regional jurisdiction, although it is also named. Note that the same road is Dundas in Whitby so I would think trying to administer it under a collection of names might be a bit of a nightmare.
I think York Region also calls their Regional Rd. 7 "Highway 7".
One problem with changing road designators is that it can be highly disruptive to things such as 911, postal service and, to a lesser extent, property and land title administration,let alone confusing to the residents affected. We had our postal code changed and it took over two years for everybody we deal with to figure it out (there's nothing like being told by a company that your postal code doesn't exist).
I suppose I'm still a little confused as to whether it is a big enough problem to be centrally managed or mandated by the provincial government, or most travellers neither know nor care what the number is. It seems that changing from names to numbers was the preferred direction for the TTC subway system. Personally, I don't care; I know how to read a map. I've never been lost - turned around for a couple of hours but never lost .