I think planning needs to start on a N-S tunnel into downtown. Dumping all Trillium Line riders at Bayview isn't a sustainable long-term solution in my opinion.
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Ottawa Transit Developments
- Thread starter Reecemartin
- Start date
I think planning needs to start on a N-S tunnel into downtown. Dumping all Trillium Line riders at Bayview isn't a sustainable long-term solution in my opinion.
lrt's friend
Active Member
A Bank Street subway is not even on the radar of decision makers. We really want our own Yonge-Bloor transfer.
p_xavier
Active Member
And people are blaming the consortium (especially the media), but they are well above the normal service level for such line.
kEiThZ
Superstar
What would normal service be for a fully segregated light metro?
Allandale25
Senior Member
Analysis: Ottawa's four-month-old LRT system shouldn't have this many problems already
OC Transpo had to deliver afternoon peak service on the Confederation Line with three fewer trains than usual Monday, with worries the train shortage would continue Tuesday morning in what has been an abysmal start of the year for the $2.1-billion LRT system.
ottawacitizen.com
kEiThZ
Superstar
We're talking about a city that has taken on so much debt that it can't even afford to contribute to a full buildout (Stage 3) or capacity improvements (twinning the Trillium Line). And this is in a city which pays higher taxes than the 416 already. Not to mention a city with a poorer feeder bus network, with some routes having 30 min headways midday.
We're also in a province which faces massive demand for transit across several cities. $12 billion for RER. $11 billion for the DRL/Ontario Line that doesn't connect back in the West and doesn't reach Sheppard. $4.5 billion for the Scarborough subway. There will be billions required the replacement transit plan for Hamilton (metro population over 720k). There's completion of the Hurontario LRT into Brampton, Eglinton East and West Extensions, Finch and Sheppard. That's probably $40 billion in just the GTHA over the next 20-25 years.
But there's billions more needed for the second phase of KWC's ION and London's BRT. Kingston, Peterborough and Windsor will probably want tens of millions each for BRT construction too.
After Stage 2, most of Ottawa will have better higher order transit coverage than a lot of the 905, pockets of the 416, and all non-GTA Ontario except for KWC. When you look at the provincial picture $3 billion for a Bank Street subway (that would have less ridership than some TTC bus routes and has a parallel surface rail corridor 5 km away) and a multi-billion dollar Confederation Line reliever (when that line isn't at 50% of design capacity yet) seems out of touch to say the least. To put all this in context, Peel Region and Ottawa-Gatineau have similar population numbers.
Yes, Ottawa got a bit of a raw deal in transit funding. And their mayor is right to insist that Queen's Park and the feds should fund 100% of Stage 3. But it's one thing to fund twinning and electrifying of the Trillium Line, mostly surface extensions to Barrhaven and Kanata. And another to fund what would be a low ridership subway by any broader standards.
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
While I agree with most of what you said...since when is the line not past 50% design capacity yet? The line is seeing peak loads of over 12K PPHPD. Light rail, even in the grade-separated form, generally only sees up to 15K PPHPD.
Even with the existing trains, running them at 3-minute intervals only gives you a peak capacity of 14K PPHPD
This is directly after opening.
Ottawa had the highest per-capita transit ridership in Canada and the United States. There is no reason they shouldn't have invested the extra half-billion to billion dollars required to double that capacity with heavy rail. There's also no reason to believe that the City of Ottawa wouldn't be able to support a second rapid transit line through downtown within a decade or two. That being said, given the rollout of this light rail line, I have a feeling ridership will fall to a point in which that type of investment won't be justified for decades.
Even then, Peel region still has a huge transit user base (at least 100K go riders per weekday, the Hurontario LRT is supposed to carry 150K PPD just a few years after opening, and the bus networks in Brampton and Mississauga are quite extensive). There have been talks (albeit not that serious) of bringing the subway into Mississauga because it is a huge transit center with a lot of ridership potential.
But back to your original point: I completely agree. The lack of redundancy issue doesn't stem from the fact that there's no second subway downtown. Rather, the line that was built never had the redundancies built-in for increased passenger loading. In times of emergency (ie failures), there's never enough space for passengers, so delays ensue for far longer than they should, even when things get fixed. Over time, ridership increases, and with increases in ridership, come more capacity requirements.
Kyle Campbell
Active Member
They were down to 8 trains at various points this morning, so half the fleet out of commission 
Kyle Campbell
Active Member
The design capacity is 24.7 K PPHD, based on two assumptions. They have an ultimate headway of 2 minutes, and the full platform length of 120m with the additional 2 modules added to each train pair. At least on paper, there's plenty more room, but we'll have to see what the actual true max capacity is. Originally they were designing to allow the trains run in triplets and near 30kpphd, i.e. a full Montreal Metro like length made of 3 48.5m Citadis , but they valued engineered it down to 2 Citadis with the extra modules added.
The other value engineering was moving the tunnel to Queen street, which constrains it's width due to nearby underground infrastructure like parking garages. The station platforms downtown would be a decent width, except for the fact all the vertical access is on the platform itself. All those stairs, escalators and elevators make for a lot of pinch points on the platform. It's not narrow compared to old subways like Boston and such, but on a modern system it seems constrained.
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lrt's friend
Active Member
If what I have bolded happens, a good portion of city council and the mayor will be kicked out of office at the next election. If LRT reliability does not improve substantially, existing politicians will be blamed for the degree of 'value engineering' that went into the project, which has left us with not sufficient trains to maintain service on a regular basis. The design of Phase 2 also needs to be questioned.
I'm not suggesting it be the immediate priority (Phase 3 is), but realistically we're looking at a 10-15 year horizon for Phase 3. The original Big Move had 15 and 25 year planning horizons. No reason Ottawa can't be starting with the longer-range planning now.
Which really makes you wonder why they didn't opt for central island platforms for the downtown stations. That would have allowed for a much larger centre island platform than the two smaller side platforms we have now.
kEiThZ
Superstar
OC Transpo thinks they have 24k PPHPD and expect to be at 18K PPHD by 2031.
There is redundancy: R1 service. Just like when one of the subway lines faces a disruption in Toronto. Heck, most of the old Transitway through the core will still be preserved as a transit corridor. So it will retain the capability to act as a redundant corridor during disruptions.
I'm not sure a lot of the current breakdowns come from any of the "value engineering". Arguably the only choice made that might really be hitting home right now is the decision to build LRT and not HRT. And that's not a decision the current mayor made. There are questions about how the contract was drafted and whether the penalties on RTG and RTM for not providing adequate service, are stiff enough.
What is giving you pause on Stage 2?
I believe this was driven by cost and the complexity of constructing those centre platform stations underground. I'd say the bigger question is why Bayview and Tunney's Pasture weren't built with centre platforms.
Even beyond a hypothetical Stage 3, there will still be numerous priorities ahead of a Bank St. subway. Twinning and electrifying the full Trillium Line from Bayview to Limebank could be a phase by itself. And if the currently discussed Stage 3 ends at Terry Fox, the Stittsville extension may have to be deferred to Stage 4. There's the Baseline streetcar/LRT too. And connections to Gatineau. There's a lot to get done on the list before discussing a Bank Street subway.
And when it comes to the Bank St. subway, there's the question of ridership. With Barrhaven being connected on the Confederation Line and a Riverside South and a lot of the centre of the city being served by the Trillium Line, what's the riderhip case for a $3 billion subway to parallel the Trillium Line? Especially when you consider the context of the whole province. Is $3B on a Bank St. subway really one of the better transit investments in this province? I have my doubts.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
They were down to 8 trains at various points this morning, so half the fleet out of commission
Bad as it is, this is the first winter. It was also going to take time to find the kinks and work them out.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Why my comment about 'value engineering' and the design of Phase 2? Did we wisely buy trains suitable for this climate? Certainly, we purchased a brand new model and we are effectively debugging the design at the expense of Ottawa transit riders. Did we buy enough trains? The original proposal only included 2 spare trains. Have we ordered enough trains for Phase 2 or will service suffer when the required number of trains can not operate? It certainly can be called 'value engineering' when we purchased the bare minimum number of trains to meet our needs. Very little slack was built in.
The flat wheel issue has been known for many decades. I have read about it from the streetcar era. This and the dirty catenary issue puts into question whether proper routine inspections and maintenance is occurring. With no maintenance payments being made by the city, RTM has an incentive to economize.
The flat wheel issue has been known for many decades. I have read about it from the streetcar era. This and the dirty catenary issue puts into question whether proper routine inspections and maintenance is occurring. With no maintenance payments being made by the city, RTM has an incentive to economize.
Tunney's especially. Bayview I can see because the flow will be bi-directional. But Tunney's as even a temporary terminus should absolutely be an island platform station.
I view a Bank St Subway as a replacement for the Trillium Line (at least north of Carleton). Use the existing alignment until Carleton, then veer under the Canal to Lansdowne, then up Bank into downtown. I'd also like to see an LRT-only bridge across the river to PDP. From there Gatineau can decide how they would like to plug into that line.
The projects I would rank above that in terms of immediacy would be:
1) Kanata LRT extension
2) Barrhaven LRT extension
3) Baseline BRT (I don't believe it was ever seriously considered as an LRT route)
4) Carling BRT (I know it's planned as LRT, but I think BRT makes more sense)
I would then bundle double-tracking/electrification of the Trillium Line from Carleton southward in with the Bank St tunnel.[/QUOTE]