Ottawa Transit Developments

[nfitz]

It's true that the train adds 15 or 20 minutes from downtown, another thing the media haven't noticed, though it is more dependable. Ottawa buses have become very unreliable. It was always a vanity project, never about speed or capacity. The question for Cambridge to Guelph should hinge on those 2 factors.

That's a good point. If I find myself at Don Mills station and I want to get down to the Danforth, in theory the 925 Don Mills bus and the subway is fastest. But invariably Line 4, Line 1, and Line 2 is more reliable and often faster. Though it's a shame that there isn't frequent service on these diesel-based Ottawa lines. It seems to be a no-brainer to have run it as two branches, which would provide double the service for much of the route and Carlton, and then no connections for those going to the airport. Similar to how the Canada Line in Vancouver runs.

Oh well, baby steps. Is the transfer point between Line 2 and Line 4 at least at least indoors and protected? Hmm, Line 1/2 as well I suppose.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

That's a good point. If I find myself at Don Mills station and I want to get down to the Danforth, in theory the 925 Don Mills bus and the subway is fastest. But invariably Line 4, Line 1, and Line 2 is more reliable and often faster. Though it's a shame that there isn't frequent service on these diesel-based Ottawa lines. It seems to be a no-brainer to have run it as two branches, which would provide double the service for much of the route and Carlton, and then no connections for those going to the airport. Similar to how the Canada Line in Vancouver runs.

Oh well, baby steps. Is the transfer point between Line 2 and Line 4 at least at least indoors and protected? Hmm, Line 1/2 as well I suppose.

Line 4 and Southbound Line 2 trains service the same platform. Basically you step off the train, wait 5-6 minutes, and get back on again. There's a large full platform canopy, and a heated enclosed waiting area. If you're going the other way, it's a cross platform transfer to the Northbound Line 2 train

 

[nfitz]

Line 4 and Southbound Line 2 trains service the same platform. Basically you step off the train, wait 5-6 minutes, and get back on again. There's a large full platform canopy, and a heated enclosed waiting area.

But no platform doors and contained platform (like, for example, at Viscount station and the T1/T3 stations)?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

But no platform doors and contained platform (like, for example, at Viscount station and the T1/T3 stations)?

No not like UP express. The Airport station has a nice fully climate controlled waiting area, but you still technically have to go outside for a moment to get on the train

 

[Mihairokov]

Took the train(s) last night. Some thoughts:

1. Airport Station is nice with an indoor waiting area. It's a bit of a haul to get there from domestic arrivals - and my pathing was probably bad as I took the exit through luggage. Like others have pointed out the platform is short but it looks like there's room for expansion.
2. Similar to Line 1, open doors combined with a long dwell makes for very chilly cars in -15 weather like last night. Unlike Line 1, on Line 2 the door buttons have to be pressed for them to open, which is an upgrade over Line 1 I guess.
3. Similar to Line 1, I loathe the outdoor platforms with no space for indoor waiting. I did not explore the whole platform but South Keys did not appear to have an indoor waiting area, especially bad when it's cold. It's a bit of a rub when you're waiting outside for a potential ~10 minute wait overlooking sheltered and sometimes heated bus shelters ahead of you. In an ideal world the train platform is built above the bus platform, but Ottawa loves to cheap out on what would otherwise be simple engineering. Transfer stations should not be open to the elements in any scenario, IMO.
4. Line 2 is similar to the old Line 2 but the trains feel like an upgrade, although it's been many years since I rode the old Line 2.
5. Like others have pointed out - and something widely discussed during planning - two transfer to go from Airport to Downtown is inexcusable. My preference would have been an Airport <-> Hurdman line rather than transferring at South Keys and then transferring against at Bayview. A huge miss.
6. It took me roughly an hour to go Airport <-> Parliament, which included an eight minute transfer at South Keys and a five minute transfer at Bayview. It took an hour and ten minutes-ish to go from Airport to VIA Rail. For those keeping track at home, Pearson <-> Union is 25 minutes with no transfers.

 

[nfitz]

No not like UP express.

I guess the UP express terminal stations are outdoors with DMU, but with platform doors and fully-enclosed climate-controlled platforms. But I was sticking to stations like Viscount and T3 because most of the UP line stations will be outdoors (Bloor, Weston, Mount Dennis).

The Airport station has a nice fully climate controlled waiting area, but you still technically have to go outside for a moment to get on the train

I'd have thought the transfer stations (South Keys and Bayview) would be more useful. I'm really surprised that they would both go for being outdoors these days. Especially a new build like South Keys.

How long is the transfer at Bayview? Do you just walk across the platform?

Now I think about it - what about the Line 1 platforms? I've only seen pictures of the underground stations - but some are above ground. Do they have enclosed platforms with platform doors - which I believe is what both the Montreal REM LRT and the Toronto Ontario Line have (at least as far as I understand from the Ontario Line drawings and driving past the three REM stations along the Trans-Canada)?

(though platform doors would help some of the underground Toronto platforms too - like the wind tunnel at St. Clair!)

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I guess the UP express terminal stations are outdoors with DMU, but with platform doors and fully-enclosed climate-controlled platforms. But I was sticking to stations like Viscount and T3 because most of the UP line stations will be outdoors (Bloor, Weston, Mount Dennis).

I'd have thought the transfer stations (South Keys and Bayview) would be more useful. I'm really surprised that they would both go for being outdoors these days. Especially a new build like South Keys.

How long is the transfer at Bayview? Do you just walk across the platform? Is at least the transfer pathway indoors?

You have to go up an escalator to the Line 1 level. It's covered but not any more indoorsy than any other confed line station is that's not underground. It's not a far transfer though

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Took the train(s) last night. Some thoughts:

1. Airport Station is nice with an indoor waiting area. It's a bit of a haul to get there from domestic arrivals - and my pathing was probably bad as I took the exit through luggage. Like others have pointed out the platform is short but it looks like there's room for expansion.
2. Similar to Line 1, open doors combined with a long dwell makes for very chilly cars in -15 weather like last night. Unlike Line 1, on Line 2 the door buttons have to be pressed for them to open, which is an upgrade over Line 1 I guess.
3. Similar to Line 1, I loathe the outdoor platforms with no space for indoor waiting. I did not explore the whole platform but South Keys did not appear to have an indoor waiting area, especially bad when it's cold. It's a bit of a rub when you're waiting outside for a potential ~10 minute wait overlooking sheltered and sometimes heated bus shelters ahead of you. In an ideal world the train platform is built above the bus platform, but Ottawa loves to cheap out on what would otherwise be simple engineering. Transfer stations should not be open to the elements in any scenario, IMO.
4. Line 2 is similar to the old Line 2 but the trains feel like an upgrade, although it's been many years since I rode the old Line 2.
5. Like others have pointed out - and something widely discussed during planning - two transfer to go from Airport to Downtown is inexcusable. My preference would have been an Airport <-> Hurdman line rather than transferring at South Keys and then transferring against at Bayview. A huge miss.
6. It took me roughly an hour to go Airport <-> Parliament, which included an eight minute transfer at South Keys and a five minute transfer at Bayview. It took an hour and ten minutes-ish to go from Airport to VIA Rail. For those keeping track at home, Pearson <-> Union is 25 minutes with no transfers.

South Keys does have an indoor waiting area, just past the elevators on the platform

 

[nfitz]

South Keys does have an indoor waiting area, just past the elevators on the platform

Is that like the glass greenhouses that they like to put at GO stations, with no A/C and only limited heat? I've stood at the new Milliken station and at some times of day, you either sunburn on the platform, die of heat death in the shelter or the top of the stairs. Or go hide in the tunnel to get some shade, but can't see the train.

In an ideal world the train platform is built above the bus platform ..., but Ottawa loves to cheap out on what would otherwise be simple engineering. Transfer stations should not be open to the elements in any scenario, IMO.

Though if the bus platform is outside, you get the problem like what they have at the outdoor Millennium Line platform of Commercial-Broadway where the freight tracks are parallel and directly underneath the Skytrain. I have to mask up there when the freight very-slowly passes (seemed like it pauses occasionally too), because of the diesel smoke.

It took an hour and ten minutes-ish to go from Airport to VIA Rail.

Ouch, Google maps says it's 29 minutes from the airport to the Line 1 station (Tremblay), if you take the 97 bus to Line 1 at Herdman station instead of Line 2/4 to Bayview station. For comparison, Google maps says it's 59 minutes from the Airport station to Tremblay station - but that doesn't include the walk from the airport to the airport station, waiting for a train at airport station, and the walk from the LRT station to the VIA Rail station at Tremblay.

(Shame there wasn't a simple direct bus from the Airport to VIA Tremblay station - that would take about 20 minutes).

For those keeping track at home, Pearson <-> Union is 25 minutes with no transfers.

Pearson to Union is 19 km as the crow flies. YOW to VIA Ottawa is only about 10 km. A direct express train would be under 15 minutes. Mind you, the non-stop Airport to Union train was supposed to be 22 minutes (and Blue!).

 

[reaperexpress]

Wow, epic fail. Google maps tells me the quickest way from the Airport to Lyon station is take the 97 bus to Hurdman (17 minutes), and then 5 minutes later take Line 1 to Lyon (11 minutes). That's 33 minutes total.

Alternatively take the 97 bus 6 minutes to Greenbro, then 8 minutes later take Line 2 to Bayview (19 minute trip) and than 5 minutes later take Line 1 to Lyon (4 minutes). Total time 42 minutes.

If you play with the options enough, it will come up with Line 4 (7 minutes) to South Keys, wait 7 minutes and then take Line 2 to Bayview ( 21 minute trip) and than 5 minutes later take Line 1 to Lyon (4 minutes). Total time 44 minutes.

So best thing to do by far is ignore Line 2 and Line 4, and take the 97 bus.

Surely a direct bus from the airport to downtown would be faster than changing twice on 3 different LRT lines. They should call this new system Transfer City!

O-Train lines 2 and 4 were built as cheaply as possible so they include lots of unnecessary slowdowns. Which is why their average speeds are far lower than the buses they're replacing.

For example:

- Trains are limited to 25 km/h in station platforms

- Trains are limited to 15 km/h in station platforms at terminal stations - even when heading away from the end of track

- Many switches limit trains to less than their freeflow speed (often as low as 35 km/h), even though the standard No.20 rail switches normally used in Canada allow trains to diverge at 70 km/h with an asymmetrical layout or 120 km/h with an equilateral layout. They easily could have avoided any switch-related slowdowns in regular service if they had wanted to.

- On the brand-new lines in the greenbelt they created several tight curves just to save a bit on construction costs even though they are in the middle of nowhere and there are no physical contrains. For example between Limebank and Bowesville trains are limited to 60 km/h halfway between stations, where they could otherwise be going 100 km/h.

- The maximum speed anywhere on the line is 80 km/h, even on the 4.8 km of dead-straight track between South Keys and Leitrim. OC Transpo's FLIRT trains are certified up to 120 km/h.

All graphics from openrailwaymap.org

Furthermore the line is still mostly single-track so almost evey meet needs to be very precisely timed since even the slightest delay will cascade onto the train in the opposite direction. Hence the long scheduled dwells in stations. If they had double-tracked everything except the Dow's Lake tunnel they could have avoided most of the single-track bottlenecks and their associated schedule padding. That track configuration would have also enabled service every 8 minutes on the core segment, which would enable lines 2 and 4 to both run through to Bayview every 15 minutes. Which would have eliminated the 7-minute transfer at South Keys.

It also doesn't help that the line is still operated with diesel trains even though the line is only 16 km long and has 89 round trips per day. Here's the acceleration of the electric version of the Stadler FLIRT. I haven't ridden the new O-Trains yet it doesn't accelerate anywhere near this quickly.

Meanwhile the federal Liberals were happy to tack on a billion dollars to the price of their HFR proposal to electrify 20 trains per day that would spend most of their time travelling at a constant speed.

 

[Bojaxs]

It all sounds very dissapointing. So many people will opt to use Uber instead of using these trains if they're as slow as many are claiming.
I was considering taking a trip up to Ottawa to check this out, but it doesn't sound worth it. Maybe I'll wait till the eastern extension of the Confederation line is completed.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Is that like the glass greenhouses that they like to put at GO stations, with no A/C and only limited heat? I've stood at the new Milliken station and at some times of day, you either sunburn on the platform, die of heat death in the shelter or the top of the stairs. Or go hide in the tunnel to get some shade, but can't see the train.

Very similar to Milliken. But at least there's announcements and a screen at the bottom of the stairs if you were to hide in the tunnel at South Keys

 

[Mihairokov]

How long is the transfer at Bayview? Do you just walk across the platform?

Line 1 is at the very end of the Line 2 platform, so you have to walk all the way to the north of the platform and beyond and then escalator up, all outdoors. The platforms are not above each other.

South Keys does have an indoor waiting area, just past the elevators on the platform

Cheers. Will check this out next time.

(Shame there wasn't a simple direct bus from the Airport to VIA Tremblay station - that would take about 20 minutes).

As much as I agree I doubt there is enough traffic to warrant anything direct to VIA.

but that doesn't include the walk from the airport to the airport station, waiting for a train at airport station, and the walk from the LRT station to the VIA Rail station at Tremblay.

A lot of this could be alleviated if station planning was just better. Tremblay Station should have been more incorporated into VIA Ottawa Station, for starters. Bayview should be a tighter build. The bus loop at Hurdman shouldn't be past and outside of Hurdman Station (and outdoors). I'm sure there are reasons for these but as a user these issues are evident. You shouldn't have to walk outdoors from Tremblay to VIA Stations, and there shouldn't be an outdoor platform at Airport.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

So best thing to do by far is ignore Line 2 and Line 4, and take the 97 bus.

Surely a direct bus from the airport to downtown would be faster than changing twice on 3 different LRT lines. They should call this new system Transfer City!

If the bus actually showed up, then yes. But Ottawa's on time bus performance is abysmal, even on the transitway. That bus in 5 minutes on the schedule might show up anywhere from 3 to 40 minutes later. Even by OC Transpo's generous metrics, the on time performance of buses is around 65% and feels like a crapshoot every time. The train actually does show up every 12 minutes.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

For those keeping track at home, Pearson <-> Union is 25 minutes with no transfers.

I would say it's unfair, as there's 12 stations between the airport and Parliament station in the middle of downtown so you can't really compare. However the Canada line manages 25 minutes between YVR and Waterfront with a similar amount of stations, which goes to show what long dwell times and two transfers do to a schedule