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Ontario Science Centre
- Thread starter hawc
- Start date
Amare
Senior Member
The structural engineers who assessed the OSC didn't support closing it for public safety reasons.
The government (Doug Ford) framed the closing because a roof collapse was essentially near imminent without intervention. The government purposefully chose not to intervene, and frame things in a way to make it seem like closing the OSC was required for safety reasons.
www.canadianarchitect.com
The government (Doug Ford) framed the closing because a roof collapse was essentially near imminent without intervention. The government purposefully chose not to intervene, and frame things in a way to make it seem like closing the OSC was required for safety reasons.
New documents reinforce that Science Centre closure was not supported by engineers
The Ontario Science Centre was shuttered on June 21, 2024, with the Ontario government claiming that a structural roof issue made it unsafe. New documents suggest that the engineers inspecting the roof didn't agree.
www.canadianarchitect.com
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The report identifies:The structural engineers who assessed the OSC didn't support closing it for public safety reasons.
The government (Doug Ford) framed the closing because a roof collapse was essentially near imminent without intervention. The government purposefully chose not to intervene, and frame things in a way to make it seem like closing the OSC was required for safety reasons.
New documents reinforce that Science Centre closure was not supported by engineers
The Ontario Science Centre was shuttered on June 21, 2024, with the Ontario government claiming that a structural roof issue made it unsafe. New documents suggest that the engineers inspecting the roof didn't agree.
The costs of repair were deemed too great and the operational impacts on a facility already hobbling along with decades of underinvestment were deemed too great, so they shut it down.
There is a reason the Province has been planning to replace the OSC for years. The existing facility had seen little to no investment in decades - it was running basically the same exhibits it was running 20 years ago. The facility was tired and structurally failing. The province made the call to shut it down instead of continuing to hobble it further or spend more money on a failing asset.
I do not understand the conspiracy theories thrown around the OSC. It was a terrible news story for the PCs and we all know the PCs avoid bad news at all costs. They have been sitting on MPAC reassessments for 6 years now because god forbid some people's property taxes go up.. They would have loved to not touch this with a 10-foot pole and let the OSC continue to hobble along until the new facility could come online, but that wasn't in the cards.
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narduch
Senior Member
The estimated repair costs were about $200 million.
The estimated new build is $1.44 billion according to the auditor general.
Honestly it's not necessary for you to do this lame propaganda for Doug Ford. Not sure why some people are quick to defend the most corrupt Premier in Ontario history.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
And that buys you a fixed roof on a 60-year old facility over exhibits that are generally 20-30 years old and with a host of other issues.
Cost of moving Ontario Science Centre skyrockets before construction even starts: AG | Globalnews.ca
Savings the government boasted about moving the Ontario Science Centre from its current location have already been wiped out before construction even begins, a new report said.
globalnews.ca
Reports indicated that the new facility would be cheaper, which is why the province is doing it. That's it.
I don't entirely agree the province should be relocating the OSC to be clear. The existing OSC is a unique structure with a unique history - I would prefer restoration.
What I am not questioning is the decision to close the facility while new arrangements are found. For better or worse the province let the OSC degrade to the point that it was no longer feasible for it to continue operations. I feel like most people complaining about it's closure haven't actually visited the OSC in the last few years and are instead thinking of the building from their memories.. the facility was very much on it's last legs after decades of underinvestment. The exhibits were worn to the point that some were inoperable, there was a ham-fisted shuttle service, the cafeteria vendors were mostly shuttered for lack of foot traffic.
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narduch
Senior Member
They were essentially hoping to just quietly shut it down and never replace it at all.And that buys you a fixed roof on a 60-year old facility over exhibits that are generally 20-30 years old and with a host of other issues.
Cost of moving Ontario Science Centre skyrockets before construction even starts: AG | Globalnews.ca
Savings the government boasted about moving the Ontario Science Centre from its current location have already been wiped out before construction even begins, a new report said.
Reports indicated that the new facility would be cheaper, which is why the province is doing it. That's it.
I don't entirely agree the province should be relocating the OSC to be clear. The existing OSC is a unique structure with a unique history - I would prefer restoration.
What I am not questioning is the decision to close the facility while new arrangements are found. For better or worse the province let the OSC degrade to the point that it was no longer feasible for it to continue operations.
But the outrage was so high that now they are forced to re-open it. Even as they drag their feet on that.
The other shoe to drop will be when they give the land to one of the members of the Vaughan Developer Mafia in a sweetheart deal. They are too scared to make the one public just yet though.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The province announced the move of the OSC to Ontario Place over a year in advance of the emergency closure... I can tell you they were looking at it for years before that too before making the formal announcement. The 2021 Ontario Place announcement for Therme also included unlabeled buildings where the OSC is going.. that was the planned OSC building.
It was definitely not some scrambled excuse after the emergency closure.
Amare
Senior Member
The new facility will be much smaller than the existing facility. Then add to the fact that we all know the province cant stay on budget with virtually anything, so expect that $1.44 Billion for the new facility to rise rapidly, and I wouldnt be surprised if it hits $2 Billion easily.And that buys you a fixed roof on a 60-year old facility over exhibits that are generally 20-30 years old and with a host of other issues.
Cost of moving Ontario Science Centre skyrockets before construction even starts: AG | Globalnews.ca
Savings the government boasted about moving the Ontario Science Centre from its current location have already been wiped out before construction even begins, a new report said.
Reports indicated that the new facility would be cheaper, which is why the province is doing it. That's it.
I don't entirely agree the province should be relocating the OSC to be clear. The existing OSC is a unique structure with a unique history - I would prefer restoration.
What I am not questioning is the decision to close the facility while new arrangements are found. For better or worse the province let the OSC degrade to the point that it was no longer feasible for it to continue operations. I feel like most people complaining about it's closure haven't actually visited the OSC in the last few years and are instead thinking of the building from their memories.. the facility was very much on it's last legs after decades of underinvestment. The exhibits were worn to the point that some were inoperable, there was a ham-fisted shuttle service, the cafeteria vendors were mostly shuttered for lack of foot traffic.
For half that amount, the existing facility could've been significantly renovated and the structural issues could've been remedied. I highly doubt renovating the existing facility would cost anywhere close to $2 Billion.
I'm not an engineer so I dont have scientific proof to this claim, but it's just extremely unlikely.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
so the renovation of a severely decaying heritage structure with high standards of restoration is likely going to be cheaper than building a new, smaller building? And that complex heritage restoration is less likely to go way over budget than the new construction?
Not always how it works.
narduch
Senior Member
Based on the same report that you mentioned on why the OSC needed to be shut down immediately, YES.
Red October
Senior Member
Doug?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
That report only identifies immediate structural repairs to the roof.
You are aware that there is far more to buildings than a roof, right? It doesn't even address the structural challenges of the bridge, which had been ongoing since 2022...
The option wasn't "spend a few million to fix the roof or build a new building".
It was "spend a few million to fix the roof to buy yourself maybe a few years in a building which is already experiencing extensive structural problems elsewhere and needs an extensive ground-up full rehabilitation which will cost untold amounts of money we can't even predict as heritage rehabilitations are famously wildly variable and expensive, or build a new building".
To be clear, I think the province should have fixed up the OSC.. but that would have required a closure anyway, and in that context, the emergency closure makes sense.
chrisw
Active Member
Ontario Newsroom
news.ontario.ca
"The business case confirms that the relocation will save Ontario taxpayers $257 million over a 50-year period when compared to the cost of remaining at the current site and will also provide a greater share of space for programming than is the case at the current site. [In addition to providing significant taxpayer savings, 40 per cent of the new Ontario Science Centre will be programmable space, compared to approximately 25 per cent at the current site.]"
The business case is a joke. $257m over 50 years is a bit of a rounding error and there'll be less programmable space at the new site.
chrisw
Active Member
@innsertnamehere Debunking the “Business Case” for relocating the Ontario Science Centre
www.canadianarchitect.com
"The 78-page document, accompanied by a 333-page appendix, argues that the Ontario Science Centre will require $369 million in deferred and critical maintenance over the next 20 years, and an additional $109 million to upgrade its exhibitions and public spaces, for a total cost of $478 million. In comparison, it says that the cost to build a new science centre at Ontario Place would be $322 million, plus $64 million for its exhibitions, for a total of $384 million—$94 million less."
"It also argues that cost savings would be achieved through lower ongoing maintenance costs for the new building, and would be strongly offset through the larger attendance and new sponsorship opportunities that a new downtown facility might command. Overall, according to the report, the provincial government would save $596 million in nominal costs ($257 million net present value) over a 50-year period by relocating the science centre."
It also excludes the cost of parking or foundation for the new location. It claims the new smaller location will be smaller and also have more visitors. "The estimates count on laying off 53 people, or one out of every six people who currently work at the Science Centre. In short, they are expecting that 50% more people will visit a facility that is 45% of the size of the current Science Centre, with a significantly reduced staff managing it all."
They also didn't account for the Line 5 and Line 3 boosting attendance at the OSC.
Debunking the "Business Case" for relocating the Ontario Science Centre
This week, Doug Ford’s government struck a deal with the City of Toronto giving the province fuller control over the future of Ontario Place, in exchange for the province taking on responsibility for the DVP and Gardiner Expressway, as well as additional funding for transit and addressing...
www.canadianarchitect.com
"The 78-page document, accompanied by a 333-page appendix, argues that the Ontario Science Centre will require $369 million in deferred and critical maintenance over the next 20 years, and an additional $109 million to upgrade its exhibitions and public spaces, for a total cost of $478 million. In comparison, it says that the cost to build a new science centre at Ontario Place would be $322 million, plus $64 million for its exhibitions, for a total of $384 million—$94 million less."
"It also argues that cost savings would be achieved through lower ongoing maintenance costs for the new building, and would be strongly offset through the larger attendance and new sponsorship opportunities that a new downtown facility might command. Overall, according to the report, the provincial government would save $596 million in nominal costs ($257 million net present value) over a 50-year period by relocating the science centre."
It also excludes the cost of parking or foundation for the new location. It claims the new smaller location will be smaller and also have more visitors. "The estimates count on laying off 53 people, or one out of every six people who currently work at the Science Centre. In short, they are expecting that 50% more people will visit a facility that is 45% of the size of the current Science Centre, with a significantly reduced staff managing it all."
They also didn't account for the Line 5 and Line 3 boosting attendance at the OSC.
