micheal_can
Senior Member
OVR seems to do ok. It is more HCR that worries me.
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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation
- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
No to go off the deep end, but the return of the Northlander makes me wonder what areas would be served with a daily train but not a commuter train.
Connecting SSM and Sudbury with more regular service to Toronto comes to mind. Also connecting Thunder Bay to Winnipeg would make sense. Are there any areas in Southern ON not served by Via or Go already that could stand to benefit from rail service?
Connecting SSM and Sudbury with more regular service to Toronto comes to mind. Also connecting Thunder Bay to Winnipeg would make sense. Are there any areas in Southern ON not served by Via or Go already that could stand to benefit from rail service?
lenaitch
Senior Member
Gad, not this again.
The one thing that makes the Northlander even half-ways viable is there is a corridor of population, however small, along its route in addition to the two cities and using trackage that allows a reasonable speed. Sudbury to Toronto might have a market, if the mainline railways allowed, but the only other population centre of any size is Parry Sound. The routes don't even go through Muskoka communities except Bala (~500 pop.).
I'd need to be convinced there would be enough market between Soo and Sudbury and, even if there was, it would require major $$$ to upgrade the ROW for any kind of speed. Same with the market between TBay and Wpg. How many people would travel that? At some point, flying makes more sense.
The one thing that makes the Northlander even half-ways viable is there is a corridor of population, however small, along its route in addition to the two cities and using trackage that allows a reasonable speed. Sudbury to Toronto might have a market, if the mainline railways allowed, but the only other population centre of any size is Parry Sound. The routes don't even go through Muskoka communities except Bala (~500 pop.).
I'd need to be convinced there would be enough market between Soo and Sudbury and, even if there was, it would require major $$$ to upgrade the ROW for any kind of speed. Same with the market between TBay and Wpg. How many people would travel that? At some point, flying makes more sense.
crs1026
Superstar
One has to assume that the recently announced spend will bring most of the SSM-Sudbury line back up to only Class 2 track - ie good for freight at 25 mph and passenger at only 30 mph. Reportedly it had been let go to a much lower standard.
To consider passenger worthwhile, the track would have to be upgraded further to Class 3 (40 mph freight, 60 mph passenger).
At a minimum, that likely amounts to a further 2 ties replaced per 39 foot segment of track....over the 180 miles from Sudbury to SSM, that's about 50,000 more new ties, at $x00 per tie. And then, likely a lot of further work to correct gauge, alignment and level to the more demanding Class 3 standard.... possibly further ballasting and undoubtedly surfacing. Rail anchor upgrades, if not rail replacement. And crossing upgrades, signalling.....
And then improvements to enable use of the main line(s) from Sudbury to Toronto.
Just because there is modest quality track does not mean passenger is now possible.
- Paul
To consider passenger worthwhile, the track would have to be upgraded further to Class 3 (40 mph freight, 60 mph passenger).
At a minimum, that likely amounts to a further 2 ties replaced per 39 foot segment of track....over the 180 miles from Sudbury to SSM, that's about 50,000 more new ties, at $x00 per tie. And then, likely a lot of further work to correct gauge, alignment and level to the more demanding Class 3 standard.... possibly further ballasting and undoubtedly surfacing. Rail anchor upgrades, if not rail replacement. And crossing upgrades, signalling.....
And then improvements to enable use of the main line(s) from Sudbury to Toronto.
Just because there is modest quality track does not mean passenger is now possible.
- Paul
C_Johnson_1995
New Member
I'm personally of the opinion that this should be the last straw for HCR. This crisis was near identical to what it went through in 2009.-MO-10-MINO_GENERIC_WEB_CARDS_TEMPLATE_NEWS-RELEASE-TITLE_EN.jpg)
Governments of Canada and Ontario invest in Huron Central Railway in Northern Ontario
A well-functioning supply chain is critical for Ontario and Canada’s economy. The Governments of Canada and Ontario are committed to ensuring our supply chains are efficient and reliable to support economic growth, as well as resilient and adaptable to the impacts of climate change.www.canada.ca
$10.5 million from the province and the feds for:
If it isn't getting enough traffic, then next time there should be no investment. There are other rail connections to SSM and transloading in Sudbury can provide for Eacom and Domtar. This one is becoming a money pit.
micheal_can
Senior Member
If the line was shut down, it would add at least 1 more transport truck an hour, every hour from Domtar. Some of that would be hazardous goods. While that may not seem like much, when Day got the mines to use their trucks instead of the rail lines, it has caused our roads to deteriorate, and it is not an unusual thing for those ore trucks to fling rocks. I have personally seen cabbage sized rocks littering a part of a major road (old 144) because of one of those trucks. So, no, not a good idea. If anything, take it over with ONR and then invest in bringing more jobs to the area.
lenaitch
Senior Member
If the government did throw in the towel with the HCR and it became unprofitable, I suspect that abandonment would be west of Espanola (McKerrow), at least initially. With the revenue for Domtar and EACOM, and not having to support about 240 km of track with no revenue on it until the end, it would probably be viable.
Sault Ste Marie, mostly Algoma Steel, has rail options both north and south.
Sault Ste Marie, mostly Algoma Steel, has rail options both north and south.
micheal_can
Senior Member
So, maybe a SSM - Sudbury - North Bay - Toronto routing?
I do agree there should be some sort of business case for doing it. It should not just be done because "I want a train". If we were to look at the business model of the Northlander, and base it around that, it may stand an equal chance of success.
The only times I have ever flown int/out of Sudbury or North Bay was due to being required to for work.The cost of the flights are stupid high and if you can drive, it is not worth it. So, really, this idea would be competing with driving. If someone in T Bay is going to Winnipeg, most likely it is to shop.They likely are not flying if they plan to shop. I don't know if people go to Winnipeg for medical things, but I think for those, they fly to Toronto. While I would love a Winnipeg - T Bay - SSM - ... - Toronto route, I do not see a real use for it. The area between T Bay and SSM is too car dependent for the train to be a real success.
When it comes to the line's state, being able to do at least 40mph is needed to be worth using it for passenger service. Of course, I'd rather it higher, but as a minimum on the start day, 40mph is a must.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Railpictures.ca - Ryan Gaynor Photo: Changing Times at Franz. Sometime in mid-September, the diamond between the CPR and former ACR at Franz, Ontario was severed, bringing over one hundred years of railroading tradition to a sudden and ruthlessly u
Tens of thousands of great Canadian railway photographs, discussions, and much more. Click to view the image or register for your free account. Please share this if you like it.
www.railpictures.ca
"Sometime in mid-September, the diamond between the CPR and former ACR at Franz, Ontario was severed, bringing over one hundred years of railroading tradition to a sudden and ruthlessly unceremonious end."
They did have options, but they grow smaller and smaller.
If any of HCR is abandoned, those 3 businesses are going to suffer.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Did not know that. There is still the connecting track CP but, ya, no ability to connect with CN at Oba. I suspect that CP got tired of maintaining it. We'll see how this plays out with the new owner as well as the FN group trying to reinstate a Soo-Hearst passenger train. Algoma Steel can still connect into the US and use marine (I don't really know what their market is).Railpictures.ca - Ryan Gaynor Photo: Changing Times at Franz. Sometime in mid-September, the diamond between the CPR and former ACR at Franz, Ontario was severed, bringing over one hundred years of railroading tradition to a sudden and ruthlessly u
Tens of thousands of great Canadian railway photographs, discussions, and much more. Click to view the image or register for your free account. Please share this if you like it.www.railpictures.ca
"Sometime in mid-September, the diamond between the CPR and former ACR at Franz, Ontario was severed, bringing over one hundred years of railroading tradition to a sudden and ruthlessly unceremonious end."
They did have options, but they grow smaller and smaller.
If any of HCR is abandoned, those 3 businesses are going to suffer.
I'd be interested to here from the railroaders what a "one-way" diamond is.
Too bad. I remember driving up there and shooting the breeze with the operator when I worked up there. The station was at the bare patch in the centre of the photo. He was paid by both CP and ACR.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Point is, we should protect what we have and find a way to better utilize it.
lenaitch
Senior Member
I don't know. You can fly Porter between SSM and Toronto for about $140 - you can't drive it for that.
One problem with flying out of North Bay is that it is inconsistent and the flight times keep getting worse. There used to be 3 per day with the first one out early to allow either making a meeting or connection. Now it is one, mid-day and it is rumoured to move to early evening, which will serve just about no one. Our daughter works for DND and they have given up relying on it. The last time she flew to Monction, they approved her driving expense to Ottawa or Toronto (she chose Ottawa). It seems they agreed to reinstate some regional service when the government threw some Covid money at them; I guess they can say 'well, service is restored'.
micheal_can
Senior Member
The times I have flown out of North Bay were in winter. And most times, the clouds moved in and made taking off and landing an issue.
Porter is fine, if all you are doing is flying to Toronto. However, what if that is not your final destination? Sudbury to Toronto is $270 - which is more expensive than my full size truck round trip. There are goods and bads about a train. if the goods outweigh the bads, then it should happen.
smallspy
Senior Member
"One Way, Low Speed" diamond or "jump frog" are two terms for it. Basically, it lifts one route over the other, so that you eliminate the gaps in the rail - and therefore noise and impact - on what is presumably the main route. The downside is that they are expensive to purchase, and the crossing route is limited to 5 or 10mph.
This is what CN installed at Brampton where the OBRY crossed it.
Dan
roger1818
Senior Member
Yup. Here is a picture of one:
OWLS Diamond Champaign
Matthew Greve, CC BY-SA 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons