Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[reaperexpress]

The business case states that Metrolinx and ONTC will work together to deliver the (south portion of) the service. It would be cool if in exchange for waiving track fees on Metrolinx tracks, ONR would accept GO tickets between Gormley and Toronto. That would be similar to how Coaster commuter rail tickets are accepted on Amtrak trips between Oceanside and San Diego.

The number of GO passengers using the ONR train would probably be fairly low, since the ONR trips will be be outside of the peak periods, only stop at two RH line stations, and the RH line is not that busy to begin with. So the GO passengers on the trips might be low enough to equal the number of ONR passengers getting off at Gormley and RHC/Langstaff. It would be a neat addition to the Richmond Hill line's span of train service.

Current Richmond Hill line schedule, showing Northlander service as described in the business case. ONR departure times are based on 12h20 travel time to Cochrane, with a1-hour connection time to the Polar Bear train. Southbound Polar Bear would be shifted 1 hour earlier to improve southbound Northlander departure times for northern communities.

This fare agreement would allow one Union-Langstaff GO bus trip per direction to be cancelled. The existing Union-Bloomington bus trips would remain.

It would be nice if the train stopped at Bloomington rather than Gormley, to get some more use out of that severely overbuilt station and provide better access to Aurora and Newmarket. But it's possible that the benefits of the station over Gormley are not sufficient to justify the cost of connecting the north end of GO track to the mainline (it currently dead-ends at the station).

 

[smallspy]

Don’t think they need to run the locomotives around. The F40 APU has cab controls in it. Only reason I can see them running around is if CN doesn’t want the APU leading in its territory. I suspect the layover at Union will be used for a political photo op. Which is deserved.

As we all saw, they did in fact run around the train and use the two locos on the other end, in front of the APU.

Yes, both APUs have their old cab equipment installed in them. But neither has any of it currently active. To be fair however, reactivating them wouldn't be a major matter for the shops at North Bay to accomplish.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

The problem I have heard is that DPU is not set up with ONR engines and equipment.

 

[nfitz]

Gosh - 7.5 on the first test train from North Bay to Toronto. Used to be 5 hours back in the day.

Compared to a 3.5 hour drive. I'm surprised though, that the ONR bus is no better 5 hours.

Is the goal to put the train back, say no one takes it, and remove it yet again?

 

[Rainforest]

No they don't. They want to run overnight service in both directions. And nighttime only happens once per day.

All but one of the 6 options provided in the initial business case include:

Northeastern Passenger Rail Service Initial Business Case, Page 25

The only exception is Option 4: Daytime service, which operates during the day in both directions, and thus also cannot complete a round trip in 24 hours.

Option 3: Twice Daily service does include a train which does a round trip within 24 hours, but only between Toronto and North Bay.

Northeastern Passenger Rail Service Initial Business Case, Page 25

However, that option does not score well, because a daytime train would not be competitive against ONTC's own bus services, let alone driving, and it increases the infrastructure costs due to increased passing track requirements.

Furtherore, the one-way travel time to Timmins or Cochrane is estimated at 12h20, which would already be a 25-hour round trip before even counting the layovers required at both ends of the route.

Northeastern Passenger Rail Service Initial Business Case, Page 23 (emphasis added)

Given what we've seen with the London GO service and Niagara weekday GO service, the provincial government is perfectly happy to introduce a train service with zero infrastructure investment, providing a service which is too slow to be useful to anyone. I wouldn't put it past them to run a Toronto-Cochrane service which takes 24 hours one way if that's how long it takes on the current tracks.

I would add Option 7, a hybrid of Options 2 and 3. The Timmins / Cochrane train runs every day year round. In addition, a train between Toronto and Huntsville runs in the summer on weekends and public holidays. The latter can be served by a GO trainset, so ONR doesn't need to buy a new train, but they might have to build a siding just north of Huntsville to let the loco get to the other side of the train for the trip back.

And in the north end, why not alternate the service to Timmins and Cochrane? Timmins 4 days a week, Cochrane the other 3 days. If that's not acceptable for some reason, then they could run all Northlander service to Timmins but also extend the Polar Bear Express (passenger coaches only) from Cochrane to Timmins. The wye already exists near Iroquois Falls, the train wouldn't need to go towards Matheson first and then back into Timmins.

 

[micheal_can]

Gosh - 7.5 on the first test train from North Bay to Toronto. Used to be 5 hours back in the day.

Compared to a 3.5 hour drive. I'm surprised though, that the ONR bus is no better 5 hours.

Is the goal to put the train back, say no one takes it, and remove it yet again?

There are many reasons why the train is superior to driving and the bus.

Better than driving:
Not having to deal with parking in Toronto.
Not having to deal with traffic in Toronto.
Not having to deal with the snow belts.
Can do other things while traveling.

Better than the bus
More room in the aisles.
Smoother ride
Meals on board
More room between seats.

Worse than driving
Higher cost if more than a few people
Longer travel time
Must be able to match the schedule
Having to figure out transportation for the "last mile"
Not able to bring back certain things.

Worse than bus
Higher cost
Less stops (potentially)
Having to figure out transportation for the "last mile"

Is one better than the other? No. However, do each serve a good purpose? Absolutely.

 

[Garuda]

The business case states that Metrolinx and ONTC will work together to deliver the (south portion of) the service. It would be cool if in exchange for waiving track fees on Metrolinx tracks, ONR would accept GO tickets between Gormley and Toronto. That would be similar to how Coaster commuter rail tickets are accepted on Amtrak trips between Oceanside and San Diego.
View attachment 364797

The number of GO passengers using the ONR train would probably be fairly low, since the ONR trips will be be outside of the peak periods, only stop at two RH line stations, and the RH line is not that busy to begin with. So the GO passengers on the trips might be low enough to equal the number of ONR passengers getting off at Gormley and RHC/Langstaff. It would be a neat addition to the Richmond Hill line's span of train service.

Current Richmond Hill line schedule, showing Northlander service as described in the business case. ONR departure times are based on 12h20 travel time to Cochrane, with a1-hour connection time to the Polar Bear train. Southbound Polar Bear would be shifted 1 hour earlier to improve southbound Northlander departure times for northern communities.
View attachment 364798

This fare agreement would allow one Union-Langstaff GO bus trip per direction to be cancelled. The existing Union-Bloomington bus trips would remain.

It would be nice if the train stopped at Bloomington rather than Gormley, to get some more use out of that severely overbuilt station and provide better access to Aurora and Newmarket. But it's possible that the benefits of the station over Gormley are not sufficient to justify the cost of connecting the north end of GO track to the mainline (it currently dead-ends at the station).

Yes please.

And with this I hope ONR can run a baggage car during the summer for adventure travellers to bring canoes or kayaks with them. Gomerly would be a good station for loading. There’s no way I’d bring a canoe to Union Station.

 

[reaperexpress]

And with this I hope ONR can run a baggage car during the summer for adventure travellers to bring canoes or kayaks with them. Gomerly would be a good station for loading. There’s no way I’d bring a canoe to Union Station.

But think of how excited the tourists would be, seeing those crazy Canadians portaging a canoe through a busy central station!

Yeah I think baggage and sleeping facilities would be key to capturing the recreational market. ONR is usually pretty generous with baggage allowances, so I'm pretty confident there will be good baggage capacity. The train which was recently in Toronto did appear to have a half-baggage coach.

 

[APTA-2048]

Gosh - 7.5 on the first test train from North Bay to Toronto. Used to be 5 hours back in the day.

Compared to a 3.5 hour drive. I'm surprised though, that the ONR bus is no better 5 hours.

Is the goal to put the train back, say no one takes it, and remove it yet again?

They scheduled for 5 hours, but there were delays along the way. One of the big ones, I heard from those following the train, was a freight train. Also there was a fatality on the Barrie line. Not sure how much that may have affected the schedule.

 

[crs1026]

They scheduled for 5 hours, but there were delays along the way. One of the big ones, I heard from those following the train, was a freight train. Also there was a fatality on the Barrie line. Not sure how much that may have affected the schedule.

There was the need to meet the daily northbound North Bay freight at Falkenburg. Then the train was stopped by a non-functioning hotbox detector, which led to a short 25 mph slow order on the train, apparently waived by CN. As noted, CN had a couple freights on the Bala Sub that had to be cleared. A stop to collect the Metrolinx pilot for the section to Union. And the fatality at Old Cummer, which was cleared before it really impacted the ONR train's timekeeping. All fairly normal delays that are just part of the "reality". It was a good reflection of a "typical" trip, certainly not a "perfect" one.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

As we all saw, they did in fact run around the train and use the two locos on the other end, in front of the APU.

Yes, both APUs have their old cab equipment installed in them. But neither has any of it currently active. To be fair however, reactivating them wouldn't be a major matter for the shops at North Bay to accomplish.

Dan

So why didn't they do that when they repainted it? I guess it's more to provide HEP for the coaches.

 

[lenaitch]

So why didn't they do that when they repainted it? I guess it's more to provide HEP for the coaches.

I don't know, but it may be more to do with the communication both with and at the partner freight locomotives. This may all be rendered moot when they get a dedicated consist.

And in the north end, why not alternate the service to Timmins and Cochrane? Timmins 4 days a week, Cochrane the other 3 days. If that's not acceptable for some reason, then they could run all Northlander service to Timmins but also extend the Polar Bear Express (passenger coaches only) from Cochrane to Timmins. The wye already exists near Iroquois Falls, the train wouldn't need to go towards Matheson first and then back into Timmins.

While it would seem, on the surface, to make sense to run the PBX down to Timmins, there might be operational challenges. It's still a long reverse move from Porquis Jct. to Timmins (one way or the other). It would interesting to see if there is any kind of ridership data that would support the need. It would seem to make sense that a decent number of Moosonee residents would travel on to Timmins, I'm not sure a decent number would be continuing further south.

Yes please.

And with this I hope ONR can run a baggage car during the summer for adventure travellers to bring canoes or kayaks with them. Gomerly would be a good station for loading. There’s no way I’d bring a canoe to Union Station.

I would actually pay money to watch folks trying to schlepp a canoe from the parking lot and through the terminal to the platform.

Maybe they can plug in the Canoe Car if it still exists.

 

[smallspy]

The problem I have heard is that DPU is not set up with ONR engines and equipment.

And yet, they have been using both of them in service. So obviously that is completely untrue.

Dan

 

[smallspy]

So why didn't they do that when they repainted it? I guess it's more to provide HEP for the coaches.

They have not done any work to the units, aside from any minor tweaks. They bought both units as-is.

Apparently the rebuilder doing the work was not told to make them able to be lead units. Maybe ONR just assumed that they would be capable? Maybe they felt they could do it themselves? I honestly don't know.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

I don't know, but it may be more to do with the communication both with and at the partner freight locomotives. This may all be rendered moot when they get a dedicated consist.

While it would seem, on the surface, to make sense to run the PBX down to Timmins, there might be operational challenges. It's still a long reverse move from Porquis Jct. to Timmins (one way or the other). It would interesting to see if there is any kind of ridership data that would support the need. It would seem to make sense that a decent number of Moosonee residents would travel on to Timmins, I'm not sure a decent number would be continuing further south.

The issue with the PBX isn't the passengers, its the other stuff, like personal vehicles and boxcars. They would need to set those off in Cochrane and then when returning north hook back on to them. Remember, the PBX is a mixed train.

I would actually pay money to watch folks trying to schlepp a canoe from the parking lot and through the terminal to the platform.

Maybe they can plug in the Canoe Car if it still exists.

There are hipsters in Toronto that would do that.
AFAIK, the canoe car still exists. Seeing that beside a GO train would be sight.