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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

reaperexpress said:
Toronto to Timmins would make an ideal overnight route from a distance perspective (750 km by rail), the question is whether those relatively low-income northern communities bring a large-enough market for relatively-expensive sleeper tickets. Probably not, I'd say, but there might be a latent market for tourists heading up north. Budget-conscious travellers may still prefer taking a 12h train ride in Economy where they can sleep 8h, than a 10h bus ride during the day. I wonder if introducing airline-style lie-flat business class seats would provide a viable middle ground between economy class and private rooms.
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I have long advocated for airline style lie flats. I think they'd be perfect for the Ocean too. Might not be as space efficient as stacked bunk births though better than individual cabins.
 
kEiThZ said:
I have long advocated for airline style lie flats. I think they'd be perfect for the Ocean too. Might not be as space efficient as stacked bunk births though better than individual cabins.
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Not dissimilar to the premise of Business Class.... higher fare, overall just as much revenue per carload.

It would be particularly attractive here given that many passengers might board part way through the route in the wee hours and would want a good catnap, but might not be willing to pay for, or have time to enjoy, the entire process of going to bed and getting up again in a sleeping car bed. Far more attractive than sitting up in a day coach, so well worth the extra expense.

The whole suggestion of an overnight train is interesting. I get the premise - it enables a day visit to Toronto without a hotel stay before and/or after. Also better connections to Southern Ontario and east of the GTA, which the daytime Northlander didn't offer all that well. All the same, I'm dubious how attractive it would be to board in the middle of the night. Great for end points, and south of North Bay. Temagami to Matheson - not so much. (not that many riders there, of course)

I'm not saying it won't work - the old Northland was popular - but it's certainly not the direction I was expecting. I'm just surprised that the BCA didn't turn its mind to what amenities might be desirable.

- Paul
 
Bureaucromancer said:
Honestly, if Ontario Northland WERE to get into east/west service I see very little purpose in doing it without going all in and restoring a full Ottawa Valley corridor and taking over Algoma Central... Which I'd be wholly in favor of honestly.
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The cost of re-establishing the ROW from Mattawa to Smiths Falls would be prohibitively expensive, particularly with no freight revenue.
tmlittle said:
I'm being pessimistic here, but something tells me the ball will eventually get dropped on the HCRY and it'll be abandoned, maybe once G&W loses one or two more freight customers. I couldn't imagine being a freight customer at this point with the constant wavering. Nowadays we rarely see anyone go out on a limb like this for plans like the NEORN 3-line loop. However if the line sticks around a bit longer and passenger service returns to NB, who knows? It would be a much stronger position for it. I feel like the main obstacle at that point would be CP not wanting more traffic in downtown Sudbury accessing the station.
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The three main customers (Algoma Steel, Domtar and EACOM Timber) are very 'rail favourable' (I hesitate to use the term 'rail dependent') but, yes, I would think losing one of them would be damaging. Particularly Algoma Steel since it is at the west end of the line.
 
reaperexpress said:
Well at least the good news is that they're talking about overnight service from Toronto to Timmins, rather than trying to replace or compete with the existing bus service. That sidesteps the issue that the train would be slower than the current buses (barring unrealistic upgrades), given that the train would run would run a different time of day, and overnight trains basically get an 8-hour "freebie" while passengers sleep anyway.

Toronto to Timmins would make an ideal overnight route from a distance perspective (750 km by rail), the question is whether those relatively low-income northern communities bring a large-enough market for relatively-expensive sleeper tickets. Probably not, I'd say, but there might be a latent market for tourists heading up north. Budget-conscious travellers may still prefer taking a 12h train ride in Economy where they can sleep 8h, than a 10h bus ride during the day. I wonder if introducing airline-style lie-flat business class seats would provide a viable middle ground between economy class and private rooms.

Although it would be politically unattractive, it would make most financial sense to just run express from Washago to Temiskaming Shores, stopping only at the existing North Bay. There's no way it's worth the cost of rebuilding the abandoned stations and then continuing to pay to operate and maintain them, just for one train per day which runs in the middle of the night. Even if the new service did stop in those places, virtually everyone heading to/from those communities would likely continue taking the faster bus which isn't in the middle of the night.

View attachment 323108
To cover Toronto-Timmins in 12h, the train only needs to average 63 km/h.
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Where do you see that in the Business Case? I scanned it again and the only reference I can find is essentially a n/b repositioning trip Sunday night/Monday morning. I may have missed it.
 
lenaitch said:
The cost of re-establishing the ROW from Mattawa to Smiths Falls would be prohibitively expensive, particularly with no freight revenue.


The three main customers (Algoma Steel, Domtar and EACOM Timber) are very 'rail favourable' (I hesitate to use the term 'rail dependent') but, yes, I would think losing one of them would be damaging. Particularly Algoma Steel since it is at the west end of the line.
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Yeah, I think I worded it a bit poorly. Realistically these industries will keep using rail, but Algoma Steel at least has had its share of troubles. Especially with resource-based industries the way they are, it's hard to make any solid predictions for the next 15-20 years, and in the meantime this "get a bailout every 2-3 years" pattern won't earn any new freight customers that would diversify things and insulate the line from those particular industries. When Vale/Inco opened the Totten Mine for example, they went with mine trucks instead of rail despite the mine being directly adjacent to the line, and millions of dollars got put into road infrastructure to support it. That could have been a big traffic generator but clearly Vale either didn't have confidence in the railway or thought it could truck out ore cheaper.
 

Genesee & Wyoming, governments close to signing deal to preserve northeast rail freight service

Aid package would avert Montreal railroader from withdrawing at end of June
www.northernontariobusiness.com www.northernontariobusiness.com

More details:

The deal, when signed, will consist of $33 million in Huron Central Railway line infrastructure repair money, the federal and provincial governments and Genesee & Wyoming Canada (GWCI)/ HCRY, each picking up a third of that cost, Fratesi said.
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It is believed the federal government’s share of the funding will come from a renewed National Trade Corridors Fund, delivered through Transport Canada.
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micheal_can said:
... right now....

If it ever were brought back, and owned by ONR, they might be able to attract businesses to it.
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It would only be bridge traffic for other carriers, like CP/OVR used it for and found it uneconomical. East of Mattawa, I can't think of any wayside traffic that existed on the line at the end. Hope isn't a plan.
 
tmlittle said:
Yeah, I think I worded it a bit poorly. Realistically these industries will keep using rail, but Algoma Steel at least has had its share of troubles. Especially with resource-based industries the way they are, it's hard to make any solid predictions for the next 15-20 years, and in the meantime this "get a bailout every 2-3 years" pattern won't earn any new freight customers that would diversify things and insulate the line from those particular industries. When Vale/Inco opened the Totten Mine for example, they went with mine trucks instead of rail despite the mine being directly adjacent to the line, and millions of dollars got put into road infrastructure to support it. That could have been a big traffic generator but clearly Vale either didn't have confidence in the railway or thought it could truck out ore cheaper.
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Such is life with resource-based industries. It does seem surprising that Vale would not use rail since it runs beside their Copper Cliff refinery (assuming that's where the ore would go) and what remains of their company network.

It certainly doesn't pay the bills in the near term but there is still the plan for the ferrochrome refinery in SSM that HCR - or whoever owns it - could draw revenue from.

Speaking of Algoma, I saw this the other day:


You never know if these M&As are good news or bad.
 
lenaitch said:
It would only be bridge traffic for other carriers, like CP/OVR used it for and found it uneconomical. East of Mattawa, I can't think of any wayside traffic that existed on the line at the end. Hope isn't a plan.
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Hope is not a plan, but it is a starting point for a plan. If it was decided to return it back to revenue service, there would be a study to find out the feasibility of returning it before anything was done with it. When the blockade happened last year, CN was able to keep moving freight by using ONR to bridge the gap. CP didn't have any options. One could think that CP may be looking at returning the line back to revenue service. The FN knows how to cripple the country. CN and CP are not blind to that.
 
micheal_can said:
Hope is not a plan, but it is a starting point for a plan. If it was decided to return it back to revenue service, there would be a study to find out the feasibility of returning it before anything was done with it. When the blockade happened last year, CN was able to keep moving freight by using ONR to bridge the gap. CP didn't have any options. One could think that CP may be looking at returning the line back to revenue service. The FN knows how to cripple the country. CN and CP are not blind to that.
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They're not gonna lay tracks because of a once in a blue moon blockade and I think bits of that old CP corridor are in use and/or have been sold off. Also, I don't think rail has been laid on a former rail corridor in this province in modern times. This is a railfan fantasy.
 
christine said:
They're not gonna lay tracks because of a one in a blue moon blockade and I think bits of that old CP corridor are in use and/or have been sold off. Also, I don't think rail has been laid on a former rail corridor in this province in modern times. This is a railfan fantasy.
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AFAIK most of it is intact and used as a rail trail, much like the Havelock Sub which could see Via reactivating it for use for their HFR.
I fully expect it to not be reactivated, but, when discussing the potential of it, we should look at what it would take. Railfan fantasy is expecting one passenger train a day to be enough to reactivate it.
 
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