Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

I am just amazed that "fix the schedule" just meant adding a 7th day....if that is all we needed to do to fill the trains and dramatically reduce the subsidy level I am shocked none of the smart people at Queens Park never saw that before.

Queen's Park has been wanting to get rid of all of ONTC. That is why there is no more NorOntair, Ontera, and of course the Northlander. That is why they did not even look at the ONR shops in north Bay for a GO refurbishment.

 

[crs1026]

Queen's Park has been wanting to get rid of all of ONTC. That is why there is no more NorOntair, Ontera, and of course the Northlander. That is why they did not even look at the ONR shops in north Bay for a GO refurbishment.

There are a few valid reasons why. Like the cost (non)competitiveness of that shop. And the pension plan underfunding that Ontario had to cover. And the emergence of strong private sector air services. And the changes in telecom technology from the early microwave days.

The whole ONTC model is an anachronism. The sooner it's gone, the better.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

An Ontario Northland question made it into the Metrolinx top 10 questions for tomorrow's townhall. See here in the Metrolinx (catch all) thread.

 

[micheal_can]

There are a few valid reasons why. Like the cost (non)competitiveness of that shop. And the pension plan underfunding that Ontario had to cover. And the emergence of strong private sector air services. And the changes in telecom technology from the early microwave days.

The whole ONTC model is an anachronism. The sooner it's gone, the better.

- Paul

So, what should it be replaced by? What is wrong with the current model?

 

[crs1026]

So, what should it be replaced by? What is wrong with the current model?

It should be replaced by an absence of anything. You don't need an organizational entity with a Commission, a CEO, managers, and overhead admin staff. The Province, or any of the affected municipalities, can simply contract with an operator for any needed service or pay a subsidy to whoever is running a service.

The current model is excessive on overhead costs and administration. Outside of the GTA, there is no Essex-Kent-Lambton Transportation Commission nor is there a Lansdowne-Stormont-Glengarry-Frontenac-Northumberland Transportation Commission.

Metrolinx, which is sort of an analogous organization serving the GTA, is in the process of contracting out its entire operation. ONTC can do the same. The Ministry of Transport can provide the same programming, service delivery, and oversight that it provides from Windsor to Cornwall. The municipalities in the North have reached the same level of maturity as say Windsor, Chatham, or Brockville. None of which have regional transportation commissions.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

It should be replaced by an absence of anything. You don't need an organizational entity with a Commission, a CEO, managers, and overhead admin staff. The Province, or any of the affected municipalities, can simply contract with an operator for any needed service or pay a subsidy to whoever is running a service.

The current model is excessive on overhead costs and administration. Outside of the GTA, there is no Essex-Kent-Lambton Transportation Commission nor is there a Lansdowne-Stormont-Glengarry-Frontenac-Northumberland Transportation Commission.

Metrolinx, which is sort of an analogous organization serving the GTA, is in the process of contracting out its entire operation. ONTC can do the same. The Ministry of Transport can provide the same programming, service delivery, and oversight that it provides from Windsor to Cornwall. The municipalities in the North have reached the same level of maturity as say Windsor, Chatham, or Brockville. None of which have regional transportation commissions.

- Paul

I almost agree. I have never understood why GO Transit and ONTC were separate.

 

[lenaitch]

I almost agree. I have never understood why GO Transit and ONTC were separate.

Although I have not researched it, it is probably because the legislation establishing the original railway dates back to around 1900 and its charter obviously defines its land and route. That was expanded in the '30s to include other modes of transportation in order to facilitate the economic development in northeastern Ontario. GO didn't start out owning lines, essentially proving a contracted service delivered by others on their ROW (now evolved). There has always been debate whether the ONTC would be better under the MTO like GO rather than its current Ministry of Northern Development.

The argument that the infrastructure and overhead of a commission are not needed and the government or municipality can simply pay somebody else to provide the service they want seems to belie the need for GO, TTC or Metrolinks as well - they could simply put out and RFQ for anything they want. The northeast has the ONTC, the GTHA has Metrolinks.

Although this thread focuses on passenger rail, ONTC operates freight, bus and refurbishment shops. There was some thought of putting the rail line up for sale a while back but I think that would have been political suicide since CN would have surely closed the shops and likely abandoned some of the lines since they are really only interested in high volume mainline operations. Of course they care not a whit about intercity bus. A short line operator could have bid on it I suppose, either as a purchase or lease, but that still would have killed the refurbishment business. Either way, I firmly believe that there would have been subsidies demanded, particularly for the operation of the line to Moosonee. In the end, the government decided to sell Ontera - give it away is more accurate - so they could convince themselves they didn't completely backtrack.

In terms of intercity bus, public money would be paid one way or the other. The government can either pay for a commercial carrier to to it or do it themselves. Greyhound has been cutting back significantly in the north. If nothing else, you can get wi-fi on all if not most routes; I doubt that 'the Hound' was providing that in the north.

ONR/ONTCs original history is tied up in the need for public money to facilitate heavy resource industry in the northeast. Had the southeast of southwest faced the same challenges, perhaps those areas might have had their own transportation commissions. Why there isn't/wasn't one for the northwest is a good question.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not sure why Ontario is hanging on to this refurbishment business. It will either survive and prosper, or it will close..... just like all the mines, mills, and other industries in the north. ONTC is not being asked to be the steward of any of these, I don't know why the refurbishment business should be "special" within the economic picture of the north. I'm not confident that provincial ownership is making this business more competitive.

In decades past, ONTC did deliver stimulus for economic development, but the stimulus offered by rail service is no longer as significant. Energy prices, environmental and other regulatory constraints, First Nations relationships, and globalization are all factors that determine whether mines and mills stay open up north. The Northeast now has a very well developed road network and modal share of rail has changed dramatically.

As for the rail line - you shot yourself in the foot with the statement

they are really only interested in high volume mainline operations.

You have quite accurately described the reality of the current ONR - it's not a high volume mainline. Indeed, it might appeal to a shortline, but that style of operation won't enable passenger service. They will operate at low track speeds on a track structure that is lightly maintained.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

It should be replaced by an absence of anything. You don't need an organizational entity with a Commission, a CEO, managers, and overhead admin staff. The Province, or any of the affected municipalities, can simply contract with an operator for any needed service or pay a subsidy to whoever is running a service.

The current model is excessive on overhead costs and administration. Outside of the GTA, there is no Essex-Kent-Lambton Transportation Commission nor is there a Lansdowne-Stormont-Glengarry-Frontenac-Northumberland Transportation Commission.

Metrolinx, which is sort of an analogous organization serving the GTA, is in the process of contracting out its entire operation. ONTC can do the same. The Ministry of Transport can provide the same programming, service delivery, and oversight that it provides from Windsor to Cornwall. The municipalities in the North have reached the same level of maturity as say Windsor, Chatham, or Brockville. None of which have regional transportation commissions.

- Paul

My preference would actually be to create a "GO for the rest of the Province". Call it ONrail or something like that. GO would be for the GTHA (under Metrolinx), ONrail for the rest of the Province (under the MTO). Have the service by a hybrid between Via and GO, and have it run the more local routes that Via refuses to adequately service. In places like Ottawa it could serve a quasi commuter rail function, but in most places it would basically be a milk run Via train that is run by the Province instead of the Feds. Let Via focus on the express Tor-Ott-Mtl passengers, and let ONrail service the communities in between.

In SW Ontario, you could have routes like London-Sarnia, London-Windsor, London-KW, and London-Hamilton (Via would still do Toronto-Windsor with a stop in London). In Eastern Ontario, you would have Ottawa-Kingston (via Brockville), Ottawa-Hawkesbury, and Ottawa-Pembroke (or Petawawa). In Southern Ontario, you'd have Toronto-Kingston (via pretty much every current Via station along the line). And in Northern Ontario, you'd have Toronto-Sudbury via North Bay.

 

[Allandale25]

Column today on TVO's website on the efforts to bring back the Northlander and the financial scenario.

 

[micheal_can]

My preference would actually be to create a "GO for the rest of the Province". Call it ONrail or something like that. GO would be for the GTHA (under Metrolinx), ONrail for the rest of the Province (under the MTO). Have the service by a hybrid between Via and GO, and have it run the more local routes that Via refuses to adequately service. In places like Ottawa it could serve a quasi commuter rail function, but in most places it would basically be a milk run Via train that is run by the Province instead of the Feds. Let Via focus on the express Tor-Ott-Mtl passengers, and let ONrail service the communities in between.

In SW Ontario, you could have routes like London-Sarnia, London-Windsor, London-KW, and London-Hamilton (Via would still do Toronto-Windsor with a stop in London). In Eastern Ontario, you would have Ottawa-Kingston (via Brockville), Ottawa-Hawkesbury, and Ottawa-Pembroke (or Petawawa). In Southern Ontario, you'd have Toronto-Kingston (via pretty much every current Via station along the line). And in Northern Ontario, you'd have Toronto-Sudbury via North Bay.

ONTC Ontario Northland Transportation Commission, covering Bus services. Used to cover train services and air services.

The name does not need changing. The scope needs to change.

 

[gweed123]

ONTC Ontario Northland Transportation Commission, covering Bus services. Used to cover train services and air services.

The name does not need changing. The scope needs to change.

But is it easier to adapt an existing agency, or start a new one? I feel like starting fresh with a Province-wide mandate may be a better option. And you can't really call it Ontario Northland if it's covering the entire Province.

 

[micheal_can]

But is it easier to adapt an existing agency, or start a new one? I feel like starting fresh with a Province-wide mandate may be a better option. And you can't really call it Ontario Northland if it's covering the entire Province.

You could simply change the name, and then it is good.

I am not sure what the issue with the current agency is. I thought the problems are the desire of the governments to get rid of it.

 

[dowlingm]

I am shocked none of the smart people at Queens Park never saw that before.

gas plants
Kirby GO
UPX
Wiping computer hard drives
Supporting Scarborough subway

Yeah, this government and its immediate predecessors are well known brain trusts

 

[micheal_can]

gas plants
Kirby GO
UPX
Wiping computer hard drives
Supporting Scarborough subway

Yeah, this government and its immediate predecessors are well known brain trusts

But then there is:
downloading highways to the cities
mega cities/amalgamation
Stopping the construction and burying the Eglinton Subway
Highway 407
Closing schools
Cutting back snow plowing services

In short, all 3 parties have a history of doing harm. Makes choosing one this year painful.