Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[W. K. Lis]

From width comparison,

new Montreal REM Metropolis cars:
2.94 m

TTC Toronto Rocket Subway cars:
3.12 m

Approx 18 cm difference.

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!

rem.info

Toronto Rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I just can't fathom why the insistence in a different smaller rolling stock for the Ontario line.

If the Ontario government want to save money by not going underground and instead build above ground and use overhead bridges similar to some parts of the Montreal REM through less-dense areas of Toronto, sure, I totally agree.

The TR can do automatic train control, and along with platform screen doors, the Ontario Line/Relief line with the TR rolling stock can be a very efficient relief line long into the future for the city.

The Montréal Metro trains are 2.51 m wide. The Flexity Freedom cars are 2.65 m wide. The Flexity Outlook streetcars are 2.54 m.

 

[robmausser]

For width comparison,

new Montreal REM Metropolis cars:
2.94 m

TTC Toronto Rocket Subway cars:
3.12 m

Approx 18 cm difference.

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!

rem.info

Toronto Rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I just can't fathom why the insistence in a different smaller rolling stock for the Ontario line.

If the Ontario government want to save money by not going underground and instead build above ground and use overhead bridges similar to some parts of the Montreal REM through less-dense areas of Toronto, sure, I totally agree.

The TR can do automatic train control, and along with platform screen doors, the Ontario Line/Relief line with the TR rolling stock can be a very efficient relief line long into the future for the city.

Whats the weight difference though. Can mean a huge cost savings for elevated areas. I dont mean for the Metropolis necessarily, I mean whatever vehicle they choose.

 

[robmausser]

For width comparison,

new Montreal REM Metropolis cars:
2.94 m

TTC Toronto Rocket Subway cars:
3.12 m

Approx 18 cm difference.

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!

rem.info

Toronto Rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I just can't fathom why the insistence in a different smaller rolling stock for the Ontario line.

If the Ontario government want to save money by not going underground and instead build above ground and use overhead bridges similar to some parts of the Montreal REM through less-dense areas of Toronto, sure, I totally agree.

The TR can do automatic train control, and along with platform screen doors, the Ontario Line/Relief line with the TR rolling stock can be a very efficient relief line long into the future for the city.

By the way I dont think there is an insistence on a different rolling stock. Its just that this is being procured in a way that its completely up to the developer.

They very well could choose to use the TR trains by Bombardier, but its doubtful they would.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

For width comparison,

new Montreal REM Metropolis cars:
2.94 m

TTC Toronto Rocket Subway cars:
3.12 m

Approx 18 cm difference.

Rolling stock

Learn about the REM light rail cars. First departures starting in 2022!

rem.info

Toronto Rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I just can't fathom why the insistence in a different smaller rolling stock for the Ontario line.

If the Ontario government want to save money by not going underground and instead build above ground and use overhead bridges similar to some parts of the Montreal REM through less-dense areas of Toronto, sure, I totally agree.

The TR can do automatic train control, and along with platform screen doors, the Ontario Line/Relief line with the TR rolling stock can be a very efficient relief line long into the future for the city.

A $13 Billion OL with proper capacity is much better value for money than the $11 Billion Ontario Line that won’t be able to accommodate the needs of this city in the medium or long term.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A $13 Billion OL with proper capacity is much better value for money than the $11 Billion Ontario Line that won’t be able to accommodate the needs of this city in the medium or long term.

By then (turn of the 22nd century), all automobile traffic would have been banned in the city centre, south of Bloor and Danforth, east of Jane Street/South Kingsway, and west of Victoria Park Avenue. Then the streetcars (and all-electric buses) will be able to operate on their own "right-of-ways" in the middle of the streets, and bicycles will have access to the entire right lane.

 

[Johnny Au]

By then (turn of the 22nd century), all automobile traffic would have been banned in the city centre, south of Bloor and Danforth, east of Jane Street/South Kingsway, and west of Victoria Park Avenue. Then the streetcars (and all-electric buses) will be able to operate on their own "right-of-ways" in the middle of the streets, and bicycles will have access to the entire right lane.

Don't forget that the 22nd century might have another pandemic.

Each century has at least one major pandemic on average.

 

[Steve X]

Don't forget that the 22nd century might have another pandemic.

Each century has at least one major pandemic on average.

That is if humans survive into the 22th century. At this rate, I really don't know if trees will still be green by then.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Probably wouldn’t be the same TRs but some upgraded version of a train set that can also go on the Yonge line so line 2 can get the TR hand me downs.

 

[junctionist]

A $13 Billion OL with proper capacity is much better value for money than the $11 Billion Ontario Line that won’t be able to accommodate the needs of this city in the medium or long term.

$2 billion is a lot of money saved. You could start building another relief line for that money, so that more neighbourhoods get rapid transit access. Smaller trains will likely mean a longer network in the long run that serves more of the city, which is better than having everyone but some wealthy homeowners take the bus to two extremely high capacity lines.

 

[kali]

^I feel like in this day and age those 2 billion would just be eaten up by the high costs (and overruns) involved in Toronto transit construction. So we probably have to budget 13 billion just for the Ontario Line. And I wouldn't be surprised if the eastern segment alone cost that much with the western segment significantly delayed or cancelled. However, even if we do manage to save 2 billion, that buys what - 2 or 3 kilometres of subway at current prices? It wouldn't be enough for any second relief line.

 

[syn]

$2 billion is a lot of money saved. You could start building another relief line for that money, so that more neighbourhoods get rapid transit access. Smaller trains will likely mean a longer network in the long run that serves more of the city, which is better than having everyone but some wealthy homeowners take the bus to two extremely high capacity lines.

Given the political games constantly at play when it comes to transit, what are the odds of another relief line being started with that $2 billion?

I agree with you - it's a lot of money. In this context though, it's a no-brainer. I completely agree with @TheTigerMaster - the extra investment for a full capacity subway line offers greater value than anything else.

This is the most important TTC transit project in a generation - by far. Relative to this, the Eglinton LRT West extension and the SSE are 'nice to haves'. No other project has the potential to positively impact the system the way this project does.

That's why it's disconcerting this is the one project the province has decided to cut corners on. If anything, we should be value engineering other projects. This line, for example, will have a far greater impact on the trip downtown for Scarborough riders than the SSE.

We can't afford to get it wrong.

 

[junctionist]

Given the political games constantly at play when it comes to transit, what are the odds of another relief line being started with that $2 billion?

I agree with you - it's a lot of money. In this context though, it's a no-brainer. I completely agree with @TheTigerMaster - the extra investment for a full capacity subway line offers greater value than anything else.

This is the most important TTC transit project in a generation - by far. Relative to this, the Eglinton LRT West extension and the SSE are 'nice to haves'. No other project has the potential to positively impact the system the way this project does.

That's why it's disconcerting this is the one project the province has decided to cut corners on. If anything, we should be value engineering other projects. This line, for example, will have a far greater impact on the trip downtown for Scarborough riders than the SSE.

We can't afford to get it wrong.

Every project needs to be value engineered because subway expansion costs are getting significantly bloated. If we don't aim to keep costs in check, we won't be able to afford any subway expansion soon. If this new line reaches capacity, we'll just build another line to relieve it in a generation and will have a far superior network overall.

It's not like they're proposing building something outlandishly small like some sort of monorail. Montreal's subway ridership is similar to ours, and they use smaller trains.

 

[kali]

If this new line reaches capacity, we'll just build another line to relieve it in a generation and will have a far superior network overall.

I really doubt we'll have the money and political capital to build a second relief line. Once the RL/OL is built, political attention will shift to Yonge North and Sheppard East.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Given the political games constantly at play when it comes to transit, what are the odds of another relief line being started with that $2 billion?

I agree with you - it's a lot of money. In this context though, it's a no-brainer. I completely agree with @TheTigerMaster - the extra investment for a full capacity subway line offers greater value than anything else.

This is the most important TTC transit project in a generation - by far. Relative to this, the Eglinton LRT West extension and the SSE are 'nice to haves'. No other project has the potential to positively impact the system the way this project does.

That's why it's disconcerting this is the one project the province has decided to cut corners on. If anything, we should be value engineering other projects. This line, for example, will have a far greater impact on the trip downtown for Scarborough riders than the SSE.

We can't afford to get it wrong.

Every project needs to be value engineered because subway expansion costs are getting significantly bloated.

Every project needs to be value engineered, sure, but they’re not, and I think that was @syn‘s point. Nobody could look at the EWLRT and say that’s been value engineered.

It's not like they're proposing building something outlandishly small like some sort of monorail. Montreal's subway ridership is similar to ours, and they use smaller trains.

It’s easy to say this now, but when the year is 2035, and we’re still scrambling to solve the ever persistent problem of Yonge Line crowding, I doubt people will be very receptive to the argument that the Ontario Line wasn’t built “outlandishly small”. Especially not when we had a perfectly decent plan, that would’ve cost more or less the same amount of money, that would’ve solved this issue for a generation

 

[junctionist]

Every project needs to be value engineered, sure, but they’re not, and I think that was @syn‘s point. Nobody could look at the EWLRT and say that’s been value engineered.



It’s easy to say this now, but when the year is 2035, and we’re still scrambling to solve the ever persistent problem of Yonge Line crowding, I doubt people will be very receptive to the argument that the Ontario Line wasn’t built “outlandishly small”. Especially not when we had a perfectly decent plan, that would’ve cost more or less the same amount of money, that would’ve solved this issue for a generation

Many big metropolitan cities have had the same problem of dealing with huge demand for rapid transit into the city centre. Most have responded by building a lot of lines as affordably as they could and as quickly as possible. This approach achieves better coverage of the city and redundancy in the subway network if there are problems on a certain line.

Frankly, our approach of building an expensive high-capacity line into the downtown core and then not building anything for 70 years seems rather misguided. When the Ontario Line's capacity is maxed out, the solution will be to build another line further out to intercept riders headed for the Ontario Line rather than to question the capacity of the Ontario Line.

I really doubt we'll have the money and political capital to build a second relief line. Once the RL/OL is built, political attention will shift to Yonge North and Sheppard East.

If the city keeps growing, a second relief line will be a necessity to support the economy. Moreover, we'll have the profits of a few decades of economic activity to fund the second relief line.