Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[p_xavier]

I'm worried that if the "new technology" to be used for the Ontario Line might be fine for when the line opens. However, what happens with the growing population numbers, with more and more crowds pouring into the Line 1 and Ontario Line. Will there be room for adding more capacity to the Ontario Line trains.

With Crosstown LRT Line 5, the station boxes are designed for expansion from the proposed 2 or 3 car trains to a maximum of 5 car train. (The 5 light rail car trains are equivalent in length to the 6 heavy rail car trains of Line 1.)

What's ridiculous is how few real rapid transit lines are actually being planned, and even worse, being built.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

An important reminder while we consider the merits of a new Yonge line:

View attachment 221694


This is only about a decade after the opening of the Ontario Line. Clearly something significant will have to be done aside from just extending the OL to Sheppard. I'm not sure what the best solution would be... whether it's a new line in "other areas" (wherever that is) or an express subway under Yonge/Bay Street. However the latter cannot be dismissed too soon given that Yonge Street throughout history has proven to be the most significant growth corridor in the whole region, and will continue to be so through market forces and planning policy.

The Ontario Line fails at its most fundamental task. And while I support City Council’s tentative endorsement of the proposal, neither the City of Toronto nor the Federal Government should release a single penny of funding to this white elephant until Metrolinx until they figure out a remotely competent plan to relieve Line 1

I recommend Metrolinx read their own Yonge Relief Network Study, whenever Doug gets over his childish god complex

 

[Rainforest]

TBH there are feasible options for building a second Yonge Line that I have seen speculated upon in the Transit Fantasy Maps thread.

The one option that intrigues me most is a configuration that has a new express-like subway built under Bay Street and eventually connecting to Yonge at Davisville, and taking over the Line 1 track north to Richmond Hill. The original Line 1 terminates at Davisville Station (or if it can be figured out how, extended one more stop to Eglinton). In terms of disruption, Davisville station would probably have to be shut down for a while but that is hardly a system-ending inconvenience.

Yes, that's probably the most realistic way to add capacity to the Yonge corridor. Davisville being at-grade and having a wide corrdor with space for sevaral tracks and/or more than 2 platforms comes very handy. And then, Bay or maybe Church. However, Bay has more destinations within walking distance, and is probably easier to build too, as the Church route would have to deal with Rosedale Valley.

The only question is how far the Bay line can go in the south. The further it goes, more conflicts with the existing PATH tunnels it will encounter, as well as getting below the water table at some point. I would think that getting to Queen will be relatively easy, getting to King might be possible, but getting to Union might be problematic. A King terminus should be good enough though; ~ 80% of destinations will be served, and those who need to reach Union, will transfer at Davisville.

 

[salsa]

I recommend Metrolinx read their own Yonge Relief Network Study, whenever Doug gets over his childish god complex

Yeah, remember when we were told that the relief line must go all the way to Sheppard in order to actually work? This point has been completely lost since the debut of the Ontario Line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yeah, remember when we were told that the relief line must go all the way to Sheppard in order to actually work? This point has been completely lost since the debut of the Ontario Line.

The fact that the media isn’t hammering Metrolinx about this is absurd. I hate the media in this city. The motivations around the Ontario Line are so clear, yet the media is just gonna let the government get away with it

 

[TransitBart]

Yeah, remember when we were told that the relief line must go all the way to Sheppard in order to actually work? This point has been completely lost since the debut of the Ontario Line.

Only because the relief line was stunted at Pape. This looks like an improvement and it's funded.

 

[WislaHD]

I'm less concerned because getting it to Eglinton was the hard part.

Since the Eglinton to Sheppard section is located in a suburb and not in downtown, it will be easy to get approved, as per the rules of our regional transportation planning framework. This will be quick too because unlike the section between Rosedale and Lawrence, once the denizens of North York realize that they can't board Yonge subway in the morning, there will be public outcry and the political leaders of all major parties will respond immediately with funding for the Sheppard extension.

We just have to pray that the Sheppard extension they fund is for the Ontario Line and not for Line 4.

/mostly sarcasm

 

[robmausser]

The next subway lines should 4 lines imo. Two express, two regular.

Most express systems use 3 lines.

The express line changes directions during the time of day.

 

[Adjei]

Only because the relief line was stunted at Pape. This looks like an improvement and it's funded.

These people are fiunny. The Ontario Line is being criticized for not going to Sheppard. I'm guessing the Relief Line as was being planned and funded was also going to the Sheppard right.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Sorry but no you just don't need to have another line under Yonge. Toronto has such a barebones subway system that building new lines in other areas is basically always the best option. You don't determine these things just by walking along the street and admiring how much is getting built. You do it by analyzing travel patterns, which is just what the DRL background studies did.

Building a new subway under an existing subway would be a colossal expense, probably more expressive and definitely more disruptive that an entirely new line. Maybe when Toronto has a dense network of subways like New York or Madrid, and Yonge is still overcrowded like today, would it be worth considering. But that won't be in any of our lifetimes.

Unfortunately, there are actually merits to adding an additional 1-2 tracks to the Yonge line. The Yonge subway is the most crowded subway line in North America (yes, even more crowded than the IRT Lexington Avenue Line), largely because our rolling stock is shorter and we're track-limited.

But back to Toronto. Look at the Spadina line, it largely acts like a Western relief line. Guess what? The majority of riders still bus to Yonge. Adding convenient transfers to a relief line along don mills will definitely improve the crowding situation on Line 1, but it won't solve it entirely, especially 50 years out if this city keeps growing and cars become less popular. Not everyone's going along queen, and the Relief line is really a second Bloor-Danforth Line through downtown. It'll be useful for at most half the eastern bus commuters, probably fewer than that. There's just too much density on Yonge for a lot of commuters to justify taking the relief line.

Yeah, remember when we were told that the relief line must go all the way to Sheppard in order to actually work? This point has been completely lost since the debut of the Ontario Line.

Because we're getting some of the line to Eglinton. It'll help, but the majority of traffic that clogs the Yonge line comes from North York. Getting people off of Yonge stations at Lawrence, York Mills, Sheppard is still imperative.

I'm less concerned because getting it to Eglinton was the hard part.

Since the Eglinton to Sheppard section is located in a suburb and not in downtown, it will be easy to get approved, as per the rules of our regional transportation planning framework. This will be quick too because unlike the section between Rosedale and Lawrence, once the denizens of North York realize that they can't board Yonge subway in the morning, there will be public outcry and the political leaders of all major parties will respond immediately with funding for the Sheppard extension.

We just have to pray that the Sheppard extension they fund is for the Ontario Line and not for Line 4.

/mostly sarcasm

Assuming they actually build the ontario line as is, and they eventually want to extend the line to Don Mills station, they'll probably do both at the same time. You can tunnel from one shaft both east and south, saving construction costs.

These people are fiunny. The Ontario Line is being criticized for not going to Sheppard. I'm guessing the Relief Line as was being planned and funded was also going to the Sheppard right.

Contrary to popular belief, the Ontario line has less funding than the Relief Line. At least the Relief Line had funding for studies.

Also, not contrary to popular belief, the line was being planned to Sheppard. The Relief line was supposed to be built in 3 phases. Relief line north would have started immediately after Relief Line South was built. Interestingly, we have a construction worker shortage, and building huge 15km tunnelled lines isn't really feasible right now given how much of a commitment a contractor would need.

Getting the line up to Eglinton is great and all (sort of), but at what cost? How much longer is the relief line South section (the most important part) now going to take? Will we have to spend 2 billion dollars to remodel bloor-yonge because of it? How much more will it cost? Will it prevent other important projects (SOGR, Line 3 replacement, YNSE, Streetcar enhancements, etc)? What are the consequences of building a lower capacity line and not integrating it with the existing TTC system? How will it affect GO? Are there environmental concerns (noise/vibration)? Will the tendering process be further cheapened out and will we be stuck with low-quality value-engineering? etc.
Adding an additional section changes everything, and will likely push back the opening of the relief line by at least 5 years, worsening things elsewhere in the system.

 

[salsa]

These people are fiunny. The Ontario Line is being criticized for not going to Sheppard. I'm guessing the Relief Line as was being planned and funded was also going to the Sheppard right.

I don't mind that it goes only to Eglinton as a first phase. The problem I have is there's no talk of extending it further at a later date (as far as I know). And it's unclear whether the ridership projections that are being used to cheap out on capacity, take into account any future extensions.

 

[Adjei]

Contrary to popular belief, the Ontario line has less funding than the Relief Line. At least the Relief Line had funding for studies.

Also, not contrary to popular belief, the line was being planned to Sheppard. The Relief line was supposed to be built in 3 phases. Relief line north would have started immediately after Relief Line South was built. Interestingly, we have a construction worker shortage, and building huge 15km tunnelled lines isn't really feasible right now given how much of a commitment a contractor would need.

Getting the line up to Eglinton is great and all (sort of), but at what cost? How much longer is the relief line South section (the most important part) now going to take? Will we have to spend 2 billion dollars to remodel bloor-yonge because of it? How much more will it cost? Will it prevent other important projects (SOGR, Line 3 replacement, YNSE, Streetcar enhancements, etc)? What are the consequences of building a lower capacity line and not integrating it with the existing TTC system? How will it affect GO? Are there environmental concerns (noise/vibration)? Will the tendering process be further cheapened out and will we be stuck with low-quality value-engineering? etc.
Adding an additional section changes everything, and will likely push back the opening of the relief line by at least 5 years, worsening things elsewhere in the system.

In which parallel world does the Relief Line have more funding than the Ontario Line..

We all know the province has allocated all their funding commitments to the Ontario Line.

The Trudeau Liberals are also backing the Ontario Line: https://www.thestar.com/politics/pr...rals-set-to-back-new-ontario-line-subway.html

Ditto John Tory and Toronto city council: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-province-that-would-avoid-subway-upload.html

The Relief Line North was supposed to begin right after Relief Line south? With all due respect have you been living under a rock? There is no evidence that the Relief Line North would have begun right after the Relief Line south. This is Toronto and Ontario with a long history of transit projects being cancelled, deferred, changed on the whim, or falling down the list of priority projects. All it takes is a change of government at the municipal or provincial level. Just look at what happened to Hamilton this past week. Until we have funding allocated and actual construction taking place where the penalty to cancel is too stiff, there is no guarantee that anything gets built.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm less concerned because getting it to Eglinton was the hard part.

Since the Eglinton to Sheppard section is located in a suburb and not in downtown, it will be easy to get approved, as per the rules of our regional transportation planning framework. This will be quick too because unlike the section between Rosedale and Lawrence, once the denizens of North York realize that they can't board Yonge subway in the morning, there will be public outcry and the political leaders of all major parties will respond immediately with funding for the Sheppard extension.

We just have to pray that the Sheppard extension they fund is for the Ontario Line and not for Line 4.

/mostly sarcasm

With the switch to elevated beyond Don Valley (Millwood Bridge), it makes the extension to Sheppard even easier.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Unfortunately, there are actually merits to adding an additional 1-2 tracks to the Yonge line. The Yonge subway is the most crowded subway line in North America (yes, even more crowded than the IRT Lexington Avenue Line), largely because our rolling stock is shorter and we're track-limited.

But back to Toronto. Look at the Spadina line, it largely acts like a Western relief line. Guess what? The majority of riders still bus to Yonge. Adding convenient transfers to a relief line along don mills will definitely improve the crowding situation on Line 1, but it won't solve it entirely, especially 50 years out if this city keeps growing and cars become less popular. Not everyone's going along queen, and the Relief line is really a second Bloor-Danforth Line through downtown. It'll be useful for at most half the eastern bus commuters, probably fewer than that. There's just too much density on Yonge for a lot of commuters to justify taking the relief line.


Because we're getting some of the line to Eglinton. It'll help, but the majority of traffic that clogs the Yonge line comes from North York. Getting people off of Yonge stations at Lawrence, York Mills, Sheppard is still imperative.

Assuming they actually build the ontario line as is, and they eventually want to extend the line to Don Mills station, they'll probably do both at the same time. You can tunnel from one shaft both east and south, saving construction costs.

Contrary to popular belief, the Ontario line has less funding than the Relief Line. At least the Relief Line had funding for studies.

Also, not contrary to popular belief, the line was being planned to Sheppard. The Relief line was supposed to be built in 3 phases. Relief line north would have started immediately after Relief Line South was built. Interestingly, we have a construction worker shortage, and building huge 15km tunnelled lines isn't really feasible right now given how much of a commitment a contractor would need.

Getting the line up to Eglinton is great and all (sort of), but at what cost? How much longer is the relief line South section (the most important part) now going to take? Will we have to spend 2 billion dollars to remodel bloor-yonge because of it? How much more will it cost? Will it prevent other important projects (SOGR, Line 3 replacement, YNSE, Streetcar enhancements, etc)? What are the consequences of building a lower capacity line and not integrating it with the existing TTC system? How will it affect GO? Are there environmental concerns (noise/vibration)? Will the tendering process be further cheapened out and will we be stuck with low-quality value-engineering? etc.
Adding an additional section changes everything, and will likely push back the opening of the relief line by at least 5 years, worsening things elsewhere in the system.

Agreed, 100 percent.

 

[Streety McCarface]

In which parallel world does the Relief Line have more funding than the Ontario Line..

We all know the province has allocated all their funding commitments to the Ontario Line.

The Trudeau Liberals are also backing the Ontario Line: https://www.thestar.com/politics/pr...rals-set-to-back-new-ontario-line-subway.html

Ditto John Tory and Toronto city council: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-province-that-would-avoid-subway-upload.html

The Relief Line North was supposed to begin right after Relief Line south? With all due respect have you been living under a rock? There is no evidence that the Relief Line North would have begun right after the Relief Line south. This is Toronto and Ontario with a long history of transit projects being cancelled, deferred, changed on the whim, or falling down the list of priority projects. All it takes is a change of government at the municipal or provincial level. Just look at what happened to Hamilton this past week. Until we have funding allocated and actual construction taking place where the penalty to cancel is too stiff, there is no guarantee that anything gets built.

Saying you're "Committed to funding" is completely different from actually funding a project. So far no level of government has committed any amount of money to the project. I have not seen one budget from any government that outlines funding commitments for the OL. Why haven't we seen commitments yet? Because we don't know how much the damn thing will cost.

In fact, there were talks of starting Relief Line north before the original Relief line was finished. The project was being studied and was on track to receive a class II estimate. Considering it'd be at least 11 years before the original relief line opens, I think there'd be plenty of time to complete studies, design, EAs, and all other engineering reports. Since they were treated as both required, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they'd start the second phase.