News   May 07, 2021
 1.5K     1 
News   May 07, 2021
 922     0 
News   May 07, 2021
 2.2K     3 

Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

TheTigerMaster

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
12,962
Reaction score
5,917
Location
Best Toronto
Might be able to fit a surface subway situation, similar to Allen Rd, between Sheppard and York Mills (36 metre right of way on Don Mills). South of there must be grade separated. Remember that the pillars for elevation take up road space, perhaps as much space as a surface LRT. Realistically, underground is the only option for Don Mills. Planners and residents will be none to pleased with disrupting a stable residential neighbourhood with elevated subway.
 

EnviroTO

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,059
Reaction score
344
Location
Yonge & Mt.Pleasant
Short extensions are more easily committed to that whole subway lines. Would I like it to go further, of course, but with any kind of DRL there is increased chances of further extensions. With no Queen subway or DRL we are in the study phase that has been mentioning these possibilities for as long as I can remember. If we hold out for the full build of what was proposed in the 1973 transit plan we could be waiting another 50 years for the funding to be there all at once. Build a few stations, what ever can be afforded, and just get started.
 

drum118

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
16,431
Reaction score
11,034
Location
Mississauga, where cars rule city growth
The full length of the DRL from Spadina to Steeles needs to be built as one project, but open in phases.

Phase 1 to Danforth with Eglinton as phase 2 follow by Sheppard as phase 3 and Steeles as phase 4. You could break it down more with phase 4 being Finch and Steeles as 5. You could still have more phases and that needs to hapen from day one as to what they are.

Stopping DRL at Danforth offer no improvement to the Yonge Line. Eglinton will add some improvement, but taken up by new development around the Yonge station.

Again, if you extend the DRL to Hwy 7 at some future date, it would help the Yonge line.

If the plan for the SRT subway had remain to Sheppard, you could open that in phases as well.

I still say that this DRL needs to be built to handle DD trains and be Tram-Train. You could built a connect to the RH Line around Lawrence to allow the Tram-Train to use that line. Zurich has such a line as I proposed and my idea is based on that model using short trains.

If you want to be over built now with protection for future capacity needs, you built a box station that will support 10 cars, but only complete haft of it to support 5 cars now. The rest can be built at a later date as needed.

One needs to think where the yard will be and it could be under a development.
 

BurlOak

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
1,643
We know from TTCs DTRES that the relief line to Eglinton provides virtually zero additional Yonge relief. The part of the the relief line that provides meaningful Yonge relief is the section between Eglinton and Sheppaed.

If we spend the $500M to grade-separate ECLRT and run trains from STC to the DRL DM/Eg Station, then DRL to Eglinton would have provided a strong relief.

Instead, we decided to spend $1B to $2.5B extra on the B-D extension (depending on the number of stations and terminus**), which will make Y-B station worse and remove an incentive to build the DRL.

** - The connected SRT/ECLRT was a metrolinx project. They provided $1.8B and it would have cost an additional $100M to $500M (depending on how early in the process they would have smartened up) to grade-separate (elevate) the line. Instead, we lost some money in the switch to SSE and now only $1.4B is being given. The 1 stop subway to STC is about $2.5B ($1B extra), while the 4 stop subway to Sheppard is about $4B ($2.5B extra).
 

WislaHD

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
9,370
Reaction score
7,742
Location
Midtown Toronto
I think BurlOak is somewhat vindicated. A year ago the idea seemed ridiculous, but after all the latest transit developments, I think not grade separating the Crosstown in Scarborough is proving to be a massive oversight.

We will see if whether the Scarborough subway survives the next election cycle. If it gets replaced with a branch of the Crosstown in a cost-saving measure, then surely it would require grade separating between Kennedy and Don Mills, no?

I am skeptical if the SM-LRT and Scarborough LRT were interlined with the Crosstown, that many people would transfer at Kennedy instead of Yonge (or Don Mills with the Relief Line). Both Yonge and Don Mills would be quicker for downtown-bound travelling, and one less transfer.
 

renvel

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
192
Reaction score
2
...May be it will be better to commit ourself to the proper & frequent Smart Truck project development ?...
 
  • Like
Reactions: rbt

Tuck

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
260
Reaction score
324
I mean, grade separation would be awesome.

Its a fantasy. But a wonderful fantasy. It exists in a magical world where we have trains running in the sky and the ground all over the place. In that world, I can take a train to the moon and be happy.

Whats wrong with a dream like that?
 

TheTigerMaster

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
12,962
Reaction score
5,917
Location
Best Toronto
I think BurlOak is somewhat vindicated. A year ago the idea seemed ridiculous, but after all the latest transit developments, I think not grade separating the Crosstown in Scarborough is proving to be a massive oversight.

We will see if whether the Scarborough subway survives the next election cycle. If it gets replaced with a branch of the Crosstown in a cost-saving measure, then surely it would require grade separating between Kennedy and Don Mills, no?

I am skeptical if the SM-LRT and Scarborough LRT were interlined with the Crosstown, that many people would transfer at Kennedy instead of Yonge (or Don Mills with the Relief Line). Both Yonge and Don Mills would be quicker for downtown-bound travelling, and one less transfer.

I don't think surface capacity will be an issue. 2 min headways (30 trains per hour), with 375 passengers per train, allows for capacity of 11,250 pphpd on the surface. Crosstown East has peak point ridership of 4900 pphpd at Kennedy, and it'll probably push peak point ridership for the whole line to 8k or 9k pphpd at Yonge. That's very manageable. With the relief line, capacity certainly won't be an issue.
 

BurlOak

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
1,643
I think 60 second headway would be better. Lets close all street crossing Eglinton from Kennedy to Leslie. Also prevent any seniors from trying to cross the street.
 

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,518
Reaction score
2,173
I think BurlOak is somewhat vindicated. A year ago the idea seemed ridiculous, but after all the latest transit developments, I think not grade separating the Crosstown in Scarborough is proving to be a massive oversight.

That idea never was "ridiculous", as a proposal it was reasonable.

However, it would hit two problems:

1) It is viable only if the Relief line is buit soon after Crosstown, and it reaches Eglinton where it connects to Crosstown.

Otherwise, a lot of riders from Scarborough would stay on Crosstown all the way to Yonge, and overwhelm both the Crosstown and the Yonge line between Eglinton and Bloor.

Since at that time, 2010 - 2012, the future of Relief line was very uncertain, it would be too risky to commit to a network configuration where Crosstown becomes the main transit line for Scarborough.

2) The cost advantage of this scheme only exists if the street-median section of Crosstown is replaced with Elevated. If it is replaced with a Tunneled section, then the cost will be about as high as for SSE.

I personally do not see any problem with Elevated through the Golden Mile etc, but there is a degree of reluctance to build elevated transit in this city.

We will see if whether the Scarborough subway survives the next election cycle. If it gets replaced with a branch of the Crosstown in a cost-saving measure, then surely it would require grade separating between Kennedy and Don Mills, no?

Isn't it a bit too late to change the design of Crosstown? That would result in another delay.
 
Last edited:

TheTigerMaster

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
12,962
Reaction score
5,917
Location
Best Toronto
I think 60 second headway would be better. Lets close all street crossing Eglinton from Kennedy to Leslie. Also prevent any seniors from trying to cross the street.

You joke, but the TTC has run at these headways before. The King car today runs at 2 min headways in mixed traffic. Decades abandoned streercar lines ran at headways even shorter than 2 min. 2 min headways on the surface with dedicated ROW and signal priority is manageable.

Reaistcally, Crosstown East might have peak point usage of 6000 to 7000 pphpd at Don Mills. 3 car trains at 3 min 15 second headways can handle this fine. It won't be an issue.
 

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,518
Reaction score
2,173
...May be it will be better to commit ourself to the proper & frequent Smart Truck project development ?...

John Tory kind of explored that option; and the outcome so far is that the Uxbridge sub (Stouffville GO line) will have 7 SmartTrack trains per hour. That means, extra capacity in the range of 10,000 to 14,000 pphpd, versus 30,000 - 35,000 that a subway line can provide.

SmartTrack is still useful, it will give a better transit option to quite a few people. But it is not a full substitute for the Relief line.
 
Last edited:

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,518
Reaction score
2,173
You joke, but the TTC has run at these headways before. The King car today runs at 2 min headways in mixed traffic. Decades abandoned streercar lines ran at headways even shorter than 2 min. 2 min headways on the surface with dedicated ROW and signal priority is very manageable.

Reaistcally, Crosstown East might have peak point usage of 6000 to 7000 pphpd at Don Mills. 3 car trains at 3 min 15 second headways can handle this fine. It won't be an issue.

The combined Crosstown / SLRT line was projected to reach 13,000 pphpd at peak. Sure, that's at Yonge; should be somewhat less at Don Mills, but probably still more than 7,000.

King streetcar moves huge volumes of riders (for a streetcar), but at the cost of being rather slow.

I think that Crosstown can sustain 2 min headways, even in street-median, for a short time / on special occassions. But if it is designed to normally operate at such headways, that's a recipe for unreliable service.
 

WislaHD

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
9,370
Reaction score
7,742
Location
Midtown Toronto
John Tory kind of explored that option; and the outcome so far is that the Uxbridge sub (Stouffville GO line) will have 7 SmartTrack trains per hour. That means, extra capacity in the range of 10,000 to 14,000 pphpd, versus 30,000 - 35,000 that a subway line can provide.

SmartTrack is still useful, it will give a better transit option to quite a few people. But it is not a full substitute for the Relief line.
SmartTrack and Relief Line will be attracting transit riders from very different locations.

SmartTrack won't do much to relieve the Yonge Line. It doesn't capture Yonge-bound riders before they reach Yonge.
 

Top