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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

Kitsune

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... the line cant be modified to be buried due to the OL on opposite sides of the corridor. There will be no room for a portal back underground in east harbour without conflicting with the go corridor.
 

syn

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Fairly certain most would not trade it on a reliability (wait AND travel time) basis. Cost of deep stations aside, I think the impact of travel time within stations (particularly when it is assisted) on ridership is overstated (obviously there are exceptions when you get to the extremes - e.g. YUS-BD interchange at Spadina)

AoD

Of course they wouldn't.

With 90 second frequencies a trip underground would probably be faster than waiting for a streetcar, unless it's a very, very short trip.

The Metrolinx narrative that underground stations are a detriment is bizarre.
 

ARG1

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Of course they wouldn't.

With 90 second frequencies a trip underground would probably be faster than waiting for a streetcar, unless it's a very, very short trip.

The Metrolinx narrative that underground stations are a detriment is bizarre.
Its bizarre especially considering what they're doing to EW but its not like its wrong. While there are many benefits to underground transit, elevated are a lot cheaper, more enjoyable for riders, and IN GENERAL offer faster service due to quicker access. I visited Vancouver a month ago, and I gotta say having an open view out of the train is really nice, gives you something to look out while riding.
 

syn

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Its bizarre especially considering what they're doing to EW but its not like its wrong. While there are many benefits to underground transit, elevated are a lot cheaper, more enjoyable for riders, and IN GENERAL offer faster service due to quicker access. I visited Vancouver a month ago, and I gotta say having an open view out of the train is really nice, gives you something to look out while riding.

It's not about right or wrong. That's the problem. It's been a problem since the Fords declared that Scarborough 'deserved' underground transit because any other option was for '2nd class citizens'.

Metrolinx is continuing this disturbing practice.

Both underground and above ground transit are 'right' for different situations.

Metrolinx is painting underground stations on the Ontario Line as a problem, when they're perfectly suited to a project like this.

It seems to play no role in their decisions to completely bury the SSE and EWLRT, two projects that run through areas which would be well served by above ground solutions.

Why is the Ford treating Eglinton West and Scarborough riders like 2nd class citizens?! Don't they deserve open views too?
 

syn

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RFQ, RFP, and financial close for the Ontario Line have been pushed back.

View attachment 271725

Delaying critical infrastructure yet again.

Fast tracking and burying a relatively unnecessary LRT line for billions more in Ford's constituency.

What a shock.

So much for the argument this would be operational faster than the DRL. This is exactly why the DRL South was a great idea - it was well planned, could've been under construction relatively soon, with current efforts focused on the DRL North.
 

warrens

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It's not about right or wrong. That's the problem. It's been a problem since the Fords declared that Scarborough 'deserved' underground transit because any other option was for '2nd class citizens'.

Metrolinx is continuing this disturbing practice.

Both underground and above ground transit are 'right' for different situations.

Metrolinx is painting underground stations on the Ontario Line as a problem, when they're perfectly suited to a project like this.

It seems to play no role in their decisions to completely bury the SSE and EWLRT, two projects that run through areas which would be well served by above ground solutions.

Regarding SSE, there isn't really an overground route available that makes a lot of sense. I know it's tempting to say "use the existing Scarborough RT route!", and in years gone by I thought the same. But we should all be able to agree that the existing RT route has been an absolute failure in attracting riders, right? Pre-COVID, Ellesmere and Midland each served a couple thousand people a day.... after 35 years! The vast majority of people taking the RT are on it for the whole trip.

There's also the bigger picture of being able to create a "subway loop" in Scarborough. Ford has been a proponent of extending Sheppard subway east to the STC for at least a decade now, and so it's no surprise that the SSE is set to go to Sheppard via McCowan.

I know a Crosstown-like LRT is a tempting alternative to a subway but it wouldn't attract significant new ridership and wouldn't be significantly faster than existing bus service.
 

TheTigerMaster

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RFQ, RFP, and financial close for the Ontario Line have been pushed back.

View attachment 271725
I know nobody ever believed that OL would happen on the schedule Ford insisted.... and it's completely fair to expect schedules to slip by a year given all the direct & indirect effects of COVID. But.... not starting construction on the eastern half of the line before mid-2024 is really unfortunate.
You'd think when they sold this line primarily on the premise of "it'll be done sooner than the Relief Line would be" they'd have made some kind of effort to not delay it over and over again but given how terrible our governments are at building transit, I'm not surprised.

If the Ford government wanted to move forward with the DRL/OL as expeditiously as possible, they would’ve proceeded with the Relief Line South as planned, and provided funding for the northern portion. The result would’ve been a project of similar scope and cost as the OL, plausibly delivered by 2028 (at least the southern portion), and likely under construction today.
 

TheTigerMaster

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If the first 2 sections get awarded before the election, it becomes less likely that whichever goverment wins 2022 to cancel the project. Neither the liberals nor the NDP are likely to cancel a huge project with financial panelties.

Those two sections won’t be awarded until fall 2022 at the earliest. The election is mid 2022
 

ARG1

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Regarding SSE, there isn't really an overground route available that makes a lot of sense. I know it's tempting to say "use the existing Scarborough RT route!", and in years gone by I thought the same. But we should all be able to agree that the existing RT route has been an absolute failure in attracting riders, right? Pre-COVID, Ellesmere and Midland each served a couple thousand people a day.... after 35 years! The vast majority of people taking the RT are on it for the whole trip.

There's also the bigger picture of being able to create a "subway loop" in Scarborough. Ford has been a proponent of extending Sheppard subway east to the STC for at least a decade now, and so it's no surprise that the SSE is set to go to Sheppard via McCowan.

I know a Crosstown-like LRT is a tempting alternative to a subway but it wouldn't attract significant new ridership and wouldn't be significantly faster than existing bus service.
Exactly. I've said this before, but the biggest issue with the Scarborough LRT plan is that the route, especially the Kennedy Corridor is simply awful for rapid transit. The stations are located in the middle of an industrial park, under large overpasses where development is difficult and unattractive. The stations themselves are located in areas that are difficult and annoying to access, requiring people to walk for a few minutes just to reach the street. The only reason why Lawrence East gets half decent ridership is simply because the station has a fare-paid bus loop that funnels people in. I don't think there are many people that actually walk or live near Lawrence East itself. In that sense, the 3 stop Scarborough Subway makes a lot of sense, it will run through a corridor that actually has TOD potential, while having the same major bus connections that feeds riders to the current RT, as well as the Sheppard corridor on top of that.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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Exactly. I've said this before, but the biggest issue with the Scarborough LRT plan is that the route, especially the Kennedy Corridor is simply awful for rapid transit. The stations are located in the middle of an industrial park, under large overpasses where development is difficult and unattractive. The stations themselves are located in areas that are difficult and annoying to access, requiring people to walk for a few minutes just to reach the street. The only reason why Lawrence East gets half decent ridership is simply because the station has a fare-paid bus loop that funnels people in. I don't think there are many people that actually walk or live near Lawrence East itself. In that sense, the 3 stop Scarborough Subway makes a lot of sense, it will run through a corridor that actually has TOD potential, while having the same major bus connections that feeds riders to the current RT, as well as the Sheppard corridor on top of that.

TOD potential? Nevermind the placement of the station - that SSE corridor along McCowan is practically mostly single detached housing - what redevelopable space there is is few and far in between until you hit STC and Sheppard. You can't possibly compare the redevelopment potential of this:

1601150905991.png


to anything offered by the McGowan corridor - like this TOD of what?

1601150986406.png


As to the urban design aspects - you are spending how many Bs on tunneling? You think that a miniscule proportion of that wouldn't have resolved these UD issues?

AoD
 

ARG1

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TOD potential? Nevermind the placement of the station - that SSE corridor along McCowan is practically mostly single detached housing - what redevelopable space there is is few and far in between until you hit STC and Sheppard. You can't possibly compare the redevelopment potential of this:

View attachment 271955

to anything offered by the McGowan corridor - like this TOD of what?

View attachment 271956

As to the urban design aspects - you are spending how many Bs on tunneling? You think that a miniscule proportion of that wouldn't have resolved these UD issues?

AoD
The difference is that on McCowan its physically possible to expropriate buildings and build apartment rises or condos. You can build an apartment on McCowan, and have it directly connected to the station. On the Stouffville corridor, you can't. To reiterate, all of the stations are under large overpasses, meaning if you're trying to reach a location near the station, you have to spend 3 mins going up a road just to reach the street, and only there could you have any form of development whatsoever. There simply isn't any potential on the Kennedy corridor.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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The difference is that on McCowan its physically possible to expropriate buildings and build apartment rises or condos. You can build an apartment on McCowan, and have it directly connected to the station. On the Stouffville corridor, you can't. To reiterate, all of the stations are under large overpasses, meaning if you're trying to reach a location near the station, you have to spend 3 mins going up a road just to reach the street, and only there could you have any form of development whatsoever. There simply isn't any potential on the Kennedy corridor.

You think you are going to expropriate single-detached houses en masse (because using the example of Lawrence and McGowan above - right by a ravine open space that that - there is precious little anything else) to build apartments or condos? Since when had that happened? It's a fantasy to argue that will be the case with a straight face. And really, going up a road 3 minutes will prevent development? Like this will prevent development - even before consideration of station integration?

1601155193443.png


Like somehow it prevented - however inappropriate a use it is for a site so close to a transit station - these townhouses?

1601156076033.png


Please, that's grasping at straws.

AoD
 
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Northern Light

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Setting aside the merits of the SSE.

I offer 2 thoughts:

1) We're wandering a bit Off Topic here.

2) Likelihood aside, many of those single-family homes on McCowan are in fact deep enough to support redevelopment.

I wondered that myself, and so I measured; and I compared to the new infill condos going on Kingston Road btw Victoria Park and Birchmount.

I ascertained that a lot depth of ~40M is workable; and that's what most of those homes have to offer.

That fact, unto itself is not meant to interject me into the SSE discussion, nor this comparison w/Stouffville.

Just putting out there that much of this could be done w/o expropriation.

Now Expropriation would make it much easier.

1601156200652.png


South of Brimorton, the properties get consistently shallower, and a developer would likely have to take 2 rows of homes back to back to assemble a usable parcel.

1601156322331.png


This remains the likely scenario southwards until one reaches the apartment neighbourhoods 1/2 way btw Eglinton and Lawrence.

But many of those blocks are similarly laid out in a fairly easy to assemble configuration.

The question of whether a blanket upzoning will attract the requisite interest is a different matter entirely.

And completely apart from the SSE broader discussion.
 

warrens

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If the Ford government wanted to move forward with the DRL/OL as expeditiously as possible, they would’ve proceeded with the Relief Line South as planned, and provided funding for the northern portion. The result would’ve been a project of similar scope and cost as the OL, plausibly delivered by 2028 (at least the southern portion), and likely under construction today.

Relief Line South wasn't far enough along by the time it was cancelled for construction to have begun by now. They were only 10% finished the design in early 2019, and COVID would've happened regardless.
 

syn

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Regarding SSE, there isn't really an overground route available that makes a lot of sense. I know it's tempting to say "use the existing Scarborough RT route!", and in years gone by I thought the same. But we should all be able to agree that the existing RT route has been an absolute failure in attracting riders, right? Pre-COVID, Ellesmere and Midland each served a couple thousand people a day.... after 35 years! The vast majority of people taking the RT are on it for the whole trip.

Ultimately I don't think it's the route that's the big problem.

Scarborough wasn't really designed to support higher order transit.

The SSE route isn't exactly brimming with potential. Even the city has admitted it doesn't expect that corridor will see significant densification.

There's also the bigger picture of being able to create a "subway loop" in Scarborough. Ford has been a proponent of extending Sheppard subway east to the STC for at least a decade now, and so it's no surprise that the SSE is set to go to Sheppard via McCowan.

I know a Crosstown-like LRT is a tempting alternative to a subway but it wouldn't attract significant new ridership and wouldn't be significantly faster than existing bus service.

Why does their need to be a subway loop? There's no demand for it.

I don't think the new subway will attract much new ridership either - certainly not enough to justify it's existence.

A well thought out LRT plan would provide dramatically enhanced transit for Scarborough.
 

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