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Ontario Line North of Eglinton (was Relief Line North) (Speculation)

What real estate would CN be giving up though? They would have the same number of tracks as they do today. Yes it may limit expandability on CN's part, but how many freight-only rail corridors in the GTA have more than 2 tracks? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The Milton Line through Toronto and eastern Mississauga has 3 for some stretches, but that may also be because of parallel GO service.

As for GO, the RLN is a Metrolinx project, so all that is under the same roof. If the RLN goes with this alignment, RER on the Richmond Hill corridor is redundant.

GO RER is needed north as well, just not yet. Metrolinx allowing a subway line along there is counter intuitive with the goals. Yes a Subway extension north should be done to RH. However, it should not be at a cost to the future GO RER.

The CN ROW is theirs to sell, lease or giveaway. Both CN and CP have a corporate need to future-proof their infrastructure.

The CP North Toronto subdivision is double track mainline.

Someone gets it.
 
GO RER is needed north as well, just not yet. Metrolinx allowing a subway line along there is counter intuitive with the goals. Yes a Subway extension north should be done to RH. However, it should not be at a cost to the future GO RER.
If the Richmond Hill line were straight and fast, you'd have a point. It isn't though, it's long and very windy down the Don River - at one point coming within 4,000 feet of the Victoria Park border of Scarborough!

Travel time on GO from Langstaff to Union is currently 42 minutes in rush hour (13 minutes to Oriole near Leslie TTC; 29 minutes from Oriole to Union) - and there's only one station in between!. If they build RER it will likely come with additional stations, so MU operation won't save much.

Finch to Union on subway (at least before they started messing with the signals) is only 28 minutes. How much time will those additional 6.4 km ( 5 stations) add? Well, Finch to Lawrence is 4 stations and 6.3 km and 9 minutes. So add a minute of dwell time ...

Who is going to take an RER train that only comes every 15 minutes and takes 42 minutes to Union, when the subway comes every 2-3 minutes and takes 38 minutes?

Other than a handful who actually work very near Union Station or perhaps on Queens Quay - very few.

Might as well stop the GO trains at Oriole/Leslie or even extend the DRL further up the tracks to Steeles or into Markham at Yonge and Highway 7. Then run GO RER from there.
 
If the Richmond Hill line were straight and fast, you'd have a point. It isn't though, it's long and very windy down the Don River - at one point coming within 4,000 feet of the Victoria Park border of Scarborough!

Travel time on GO from Langstaff to Union is currently 42 minutes in rush hour (13 minutes to Oriole near Leslie TTC; 29 minutes from Oriole to Union) - and there's only one station in between!. If they build RER it will likely come with additional stations, so MU operation won't save much.

Finch to Union on subway (at least before they started messing with the signals) is only 28 minutes. How much time will those additional 6.4 km ( 5 stations) add? Well, Finch to Lawrence is 4 stations and 6.3 km and 9 minutes. So add a minute of dwell time ...

Who is going to take an RER train that only comes every 15 minutes and takes 42 minutes to Union, when the subway comes every 2-3 minutes and takes 38 minutes?

Other than a handful who actually work very near Union Station or perhaps on Queens Quay - very few.

Might as well stop the GO trains at Oriole/Leslie or even extend the DRL further up the tracks to Steeles or into Markham at Yonge and Highway 7. Then run GO RER from there.

North of Eglintion, it looks like there may be locations that adding RER stations might be worth doing. Even south of Gerrard might be worth putting stations in.

Reality is, each current GO line could be RER if the demand is there, and if the owners of the subs are willing.
 
What do you do about corridors that are too narrow to accommodate anything but below-grade rapid transit?

I am thinking of Dufferin primarily, but Jane as well (which is compounded with drastic changes to grade along the corridor).

Dufferin is being touted for Relief Line Northwest and I can't really think of another street where this is a huge issue.

Jane is interesting. If expropriating areas around the road is impossible, I guess tunneling partway could work or running the LRT as a streetcar partway is a fair compromise.
 
If the Richmond Hill line were straight and fast, you'd have a point. It isn't though, it's long and very windy down the Don River - at one point coming within 4,000 feet of the Victoria Park border of Scarborough!

Travel time on GO from Langstaff to Union is currently 42 minutes in rush hour (13 minutes to Oriole near Leslie TTC; 29 minutes from Oriole to Union) - and there's only one station in between!. If they build RER it will likely come with additional stations, so MU operation won't save much.

Finch to Union on subway (at least before they started messing with the signals) is only 28 minutes. How much time will those additional 6.4 km ( 5 stations) add? Well, Finch to Lawrence is 4 stations and 6.3 km and 9 minutes. So add a minute of dwell time ...

Who is going to take an RER train that only comes every 15 minutes and takes 42 minutes to Union, when the subway comes every 2-3 minutes and takes 38 minutes?

Other than a handful who actually work very near Union Station or perhaps on Queens Quay - very few.

Might as well stop the GO trains at Oriole/Leslie or even extend the DRL further up the tracks to Steeles or into Markham at Yonge and Highway 7. Then run GO RER from there.

To add to this, under the present alignment, an interchange with the Bloor-Danforth line is impossible, and an interchange with Eglinton Crosstown is highly impractical. Oriole GO would need to be relocated in order to allow for an interchange with the Sheppard line (at least this could be easily done). It is unlikely that a Relief Line station would be built in between Lawrence and York Mills to allow for an interchange with Richmond Hill. This makes the Richmond Hill GO line a zero for four when it comes to interchanges with the TTC subway system. In addition, any move to RER on Richmond Hill would require electrification, which can't be done with an alignment that goes through a floodplain.

If we wanted to address these problems with the Richmond Hill GO line, and upgrade to RER, then it would necessitate a new alignment on major portions of the corridor south of Lawrence. This new alignment (alongside the new stations) would cost a lot of money. All to duplicate rapid transit service in the same general corridor of the city as the Relief Line.

You already detailed how travel time from Langstaff to downtown is not considerably improved on Richmond Hill GO compared to the theoretical TTC subway extension to Richmond Hill. This is in addition to Richmond Hill GO servicing only one destination (Union Station) when many people have destinations at Sheppard, Eglinton, St Clair, Bloor, and Dundas. An RER train arrives every 15 minutes, whereas a subway arrives every 2-3 minutes, as mentioned. Not to mention that it is a higher fare price than the TTC.

Now let's consider ridership. The Richmond Hill GO line has 10,000 daily riders. This is the lowest ridership in the GO Rail system and a fraction of the other GO lines, or 1/6th of the Scarborough Subway. If the Richmond Hill GO line was a TTC bus route, it would be the ridership equivalent of the 11 Bayview bus (10,400 daily riders). There are bus routes in York Region with more users, and York Region has overall very low bus ridership.

So I understand the refrain from wanting to discontinue a GO Line, but given the myriad of problems with the route, the prohibitively expensive cost of upgrading the line, the low ridership, high fare, high operating cost to the GO line, the single-destination (Union Station), and the duplication of service on the same general corridor with the planned Relief Line, it needs to be emphasized that is not a particularly great GO route, presently or as a priority to upgrade.

I don't think it is ridiculous to suggest replacing the route south of Langstaff with the Relief Line. You would be replacing a route with all the aforementioned problems with a frequent, rapid, and direct subway line that connects with Sheppard, Eglinton, Danforth, East Harbour, and finally the Financial district (and one day, potentially destinations to the west).
 
Indeed, the northern section of today's Richmond Hill GO line might become more valuable if repurposed as a section of DRL, or as a branch of DRL.
 
Indeed, the northern section of today's Richmond Hill GO line might become more valuable if repurposed as a section of DRL, or as a branch of DRL.
If we wanted to address these problems with the Richmond Hill GO line, and upgrade to RER, then it would necessitate a new alignment on major portions of the corridor south of Lawrence. This new alignment (alongside the new stations) would cost a lot of money.
RER in the form of Metro vehicles that can run on mainline becomes the DRL at Don Mills and south to the core initially, and then across the southern part of the City to the Georgetown Corridor where it runs northwest on present Metrolinx track, either to the airport or and/or to Bramalea/Mt Pleasant. Electrified, 25kVAC, of course, with option for bi-voltage 750VDC to run on LRT tracks as well.

Examples:
Videos
1541346229767.jpeg

2:58
MUMBAI METRO TRAIN ARRIVAL & DEPARTURE COMPILATION ...

Imzy Vlogs
YouTube - Jun 11, 2014
1541346229818.jpeg

4:13
Dubai WorldClass Metro Train Metro Station *HD

daintellekt
YouTube - Apr 7, 2013
1541346229868.jpeg

4:40
How To Ride The Metro Rail Train In Los Angeles

hoohoohoblin
YouTube - Mar 2, 2014
 
RER in the form of Metro vehicles that can run on mainline becomes the DRL at Don Mills and south to the core initially, and then across the southern part of the City to the Georgetown Corridor where it runs northwest on present Metrolinx track, either to the airport or and/or to Bramalea/Mt Pleasant. Electrified, 25kVAC, of course, with option for bi-voltage 750VDC to run on LRT tracks as well.

Examples:
Videos
View attachment 162720
2:58
MUMBAI METRO TRAIN ARRIVAL & DEPARTURE COMPILATION ...
Imzy Vlogs
YouTube - Jun 11, 2014
View attachment 162722
4:13
Dubai WorldClass Metro Train Metro Station *HD
daintellekt
YouTube - Apr 7, 2013
View attachment 162721
4:40
How To Ride The Metro Rail Train In Los Angeles
hoohoohoblin
YouTube - Mar 2, 2014

They

Do

Not

Meet

Transport

Canada

Standards
 
North of Steeles they dont have to. Thats metrolinx owned track and they dont have to meet TC standards if they wish to repurpose the track and modify the signalling system.

Are you talking about the CN Mainline, you know, the one that has freight on it heading to Vancouver? Cus, if you don't think it is, then you may want to examine this closer. RH line is the CN Mainline
 
Are you talking about the CN Mainline, you know, the one that has freight on it heading to Vancouver? Cus, if you don't think it is, then you may want to examine this closer. RH line is the CN Mainline
Now take a look at the map. There's lots of room to either elevate a Metrolinx line nearly adjacent, or to run a track beside the present Bala track north of the CN Bypass.. The problem isn't Transport Canada. The problem is intransigence, and CN, and in other instances, CP. Can't join them? Then go around them.

At the end of the day, paralleling their RoW is going to be a hell of a lot easier than establishing a virgin route. Oddly, neither do Ottawa's O-Trains or REM meet TC's regs (minus waivers), and yet REM is being petitioned by VIA Rail to retain access to the Mont Royal Tunnel. REM is a Metro type of vehicle. Driverless yet. And as a side issue, I still can't find where the RoW from Gare Centrale to the northern portal of the tunnel received permission from the CTA for abandonment as a prelude to re-use. But I digress.

I've discussed this at length prior. Perhaps you were sleeping?

There's also the option of a cross-platform passenger interchange in Don Mills for the present RH GO line to offer a metro/RER vehicle route down the Relief Line, and the RER to continue in other directions north, northwest or east from that point, one of them being to utilize a track and/or RoW on or beside the present CP alignment east, the same one that will ostensibly allow HFR to use the Don Spur to access Union Station.

Pardon me for thinking outside the box. It's very un-Torontonian of me...allow me to put it in terms more to the Toronto Zeitgeist: "Subways, subways, subways"...
 
Last edited:
Are you talking about the CN Mainline, you know, the one that has freight on it heading to Vancouver? Cus, if you don't think it is, then you may want to examine this closer. RH line is the CN Mainline

RH is NOT the CN Mainline South of Steeles.

Its owned by Metrolinx. You. Are. WRONG.

Corridor_Ownership_Map-800x618.jpg


https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

go.png
 
Now take a look at the map. There's lots of room to either elevate a Metrolinx line nearly adjacent, or to run a track beside the present Bala track north of the CN Bypass.. The problem isn't Transport Canada. The problem is intransigence, and CN, and in other instances, CP. Can't join them? Then go around them.

At the end of the day, paralleling their RoW is going to be a hell of a lot easier than establishing a virgin route. Oddly, neither do Ottawa's O-Trains or REM meet TC's regs (minus waivers), and yet REM is being petitioned by VIA Rail to retain access to the Mont Royal Tunnel. REM is a Metro type of vehicle. Driverless yet. And as a side issue, I still can't find where the RoW from Gare Centrale to the northern portal of the tunnel received permission from the CTA for abandonment as a prelude to re-use. But I digress.

I've discussed this at length prior. Perhaps you were sleeping?

There's also the option of a cross-platform passenger interchange in Don Mills for the present RH GO line to offer a metro/RER vehicle route down the Relief Line, and the RER to continue in other directions north, northwest or east from that point, one of them being to utilize a track and/or RoW on or beside the present CP alignment east, the same one that will ostensibly allow HFR to use the Don Spur to access Union Station.

Pardon me for thinking outside the box. It's very un-Torontonian of me...allow me to put it in terms more to the Toronto Zeitgeist: "Subways, subways, subways"...

The O-train is run along a line that is seldom used.

RH is NOT the CN Mainline South of Steeles.

Its owned by Metrolinx. You. Are. WRONG.

Corridor_Ownership_Map-800x618.jpg


https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

View attachment 162813

See that blue? See how it comes down from the north? That is the Bala Sub.

See the Blue that goes across the city? That is also CN. North of that, is Langstaff GO, Richmond Hill GO, and Gormley GO. Ignoring GO trains,, that line North of the Doncaster Junction is a very busy freight line.

There will be no waiver for non TC Compliant trains on that section. It would need to be seperated from the freight line.
 
The O-train is run along a line that is seldom used.
Seldom used or not, the point stands. You made a statement of the absolute that it couldn't/wouldn't happen. GO RER is leaning toward single decker EMUs, ostensibly with at least three sets of doors each side of each EMU coach. Just as is done on most Metros. "It's up to the winning bidder" - Phil Verster.
There will be no waiver for non TC Compliant trains on that section. It would need to be seperated from the freight line.
That's not what you stated initially. You stated the whole line. Many of us are very aware that CN calls the shots north of the by-pass, which is why alternatives have been detailed a number of times, including street running north of the by-pass if it's done with LRT's, another option to consider, and again, has been discussed in detail in this and other strings prior.
 
Seldom used or not, the point stands. You made a statement of the absolute that it couldn't/wouldn't happen. GO RER is leaning toward single decker EMUs, ostensibly with at least three sets of doors each side of each EMU coach. Just as is done on most Metros. "It's up to the winning bidder" - Phil Verster.
That's not what you stated initially. You stated the whole line. Many of us are very aware that CN calls the shots north of the by-pass, which is why alternatives have been detailed a number of times, including street running north of the by-pass if it's done with LRT's, another option to consider, and again, has been discussed in detail in this and other strings prior.

Yet you and others keep saying that they will run on the same tracks as CN freight trains. That simply will not happen.
 

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