Ontario Line North of Eglinton (was Relief Line North) (Speculation)

[Neutrino]

Bloor-Yonge has needed relief since the late 80s, no? I don't know about the rest of the line.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Fantasy or not, these kind of built in redundancies to the network would be nice. Especially since we are playing with the same rolling stock here in Toronto.

This is why I am moderately supportive of Sheppard West extension, despite low projected ridership. (Access to Wilson Yard is another excellent reason)

The design of the transfer/terminal stations and the transfer tracks to get trains for the Relief Line to and from the Greenwood yards, are such that should work (IE. Bloor viaduct) prevent through service on Line 2, ALL downtown bound passengers would have to walk to and from Line 2's Pape Station to the Relief Line's Danforth Station to get downtown. With a different design, Line 2 trains could continue down the Relief Line (as a "tripper"), in such a situation where passengers can't continue any further than Broadview Station, like theses days.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The design of the transfer/terminal stations and the transfer tracks to get trains for the Relief Line to and from the Greenwood yards, are such that should work (IE. Bloor viaduct) prevent through service on Line 2, ALL downtown bound passengers would have to walk to and from Line 2's Pape Station to the Relief Line's Danforth Station to get downtown. With a different design, Line 2 trains could continue down the Relief Line (as a "tripper"), in such a situation where passengers can't continue any further than Broadview Station, like theses days.

I think there was a discussion in the RLS thread about this and someone suggested that the put the wye on the north side because of the elevation.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Bloor-Yonge has needed relief since the late 80s, no? I don't know about the rest of the line.

This is Relief Line North so the focus is of the Yonge Subway, not Bloor-Yonge station, which is the focus of Relief Line South.

 

[Neutrino]

Well, RLN has the secondary function of reducing transfer volumes onto Line 2. I understand Line 2 to Line 1 transfers are the biggest problem, but the reserve volume is also very large and it's still relevant.

 

[smallspy]

Bloor-Yonge has needed relief since the late 80s, no? I don't know about the rest of the line.

Even earlier than that. There were plans as early as 1982 or 1983 for the DRL to be built using ICTS technology/cars, and continue north - in an elevated structure - in the median of Don Mills Road. This is why it was rebuilt with a wide median in the early 1990s.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Well, RLN has the secondary function of reducing transfer volumes onto Line 2. I understand Line 2 to Line 1 transfers are the biggest problem, but the reserve volume is also very large and it's still relevant.

So...by this logic, wouldn't it actually make even more sense to extend the Relief Line further north into Markham or connect with the Sheppard Subway? Think about it, with more coverage, it takes more riders away from the Yonge Subway, thereby reducing the number of commuters transferring from line 1 to Line 2 at Bloor-Yonge, and shifting them over to Pape-Danforth?

 

[Leo_Chan]

So...by this logic, wouldn't it actually make even more sense to extend the Relief Line further north into Markham or connect with the Sheppard Subway? Think about it, with more coverage, it takes more riders away from the Yonge Subway, thereby reducing the number of commuters transferring from line 1 to Line 2 at Bloor-Yonge, and shifting them over to Pape-Danforth?

That’s exactly what’s being proposed. Did you forget what thread you’re on? The only reason why it doesn’t go all the way at once is that is being proposed, planned, designed, built, and opened in phases.

 

[Neutrino]

I don't really support RLN going into Markham/York Region because transit service to that area should be in the form of regional rail and BRT for connections to the outer 416.

 

[44 North]

I don't really support RLN going into Markham/York Region because transit service to that area should be in the form of regional rail and BRT for connections to the outer 416.

But there is a fairly big gap between GO RH and GO Stouffville getting into the general northern RLN catchment, which could include York Region one day. Not saying I want RL going into Markham...however, I think potentially using options like branching or elevated could present a more realistic opportunity. At least vs a deep bore full trunk route. The elevated aspect is one reason I think *maybe* it might be wise to go with a narrower train profile. Not by much, but slimming down the trains would also mean slimming down an above-grade guideway - thus making it slightly more palatable. Say, parts of Don Mills, maybe Leslie, maybe Woodbine, maybe Sheppard East if it veered that way. Generally in more suburban areas where the road widths are massive.

Basically become verbotten taboo in TO Planning to mention elevated, but gotta link to VanCity to show it working well. Beautiful landscaping, lots of highrise development, it works. Rotate around Lougheed Hwy. Among many other locations in the city. Seems great.

 

[Neutrino]

Agree that elevated may be a good option

 

[UrbanAffair]

Newbie to the transit side of UT, but is there any plans or need or possible need, for the TTC/Metrolinx/whomever to build in station bypasses or express train bypasses on future subway builds?

 

[steveintoronto]

The elevated aspect is one reason I think *maybe* it might be wise to go with a narrower train profile. Not by much, but slimming down the trains would also mean slimming down an above-grade guideway - thus making it slightly more palatable. Say, parts of Don Mills, maybe Leslie, maybe Woodbine, maybe Sheppard East if it veered that way. Generally in more suburban areas where the road widths are massive.

And it lends itself yet again to a *Metro* type of vehicle to run underground in tunnel downtown, and above grade in the north. Mainline compatible, an RER variant, and able to stone two birds with one kill. More if York Region cares to expand it.

 

[gweed123]

Maybe when the Relief Line reaches Sheppard (Consumers Road Station?), it splits into two branches. Branch B continues north under Victoria Park Avenue to the sprawl of Markham, while Branch B follows the "old" Line 4 Sheppard to Yonge-Sheppard Station and further west to Sheppard West Station.

I had a similar thought, only I actually split the line just north of Science Centre Station (Eglinton).

Branch A would continue up Don Mills to just north of Lawrence, where it would assume the Richmond Hill GO right-of-way all the way to Richmond Hill Centre.

Branch B would veer east along the Midtown Corridor to Victoria Park, where it would continue north to Sheppard before connecting with the existing Sheppard Subway.

By splitting further down the line, it increases coverage (though also does increase costs). Eglinton will be a major transfer point, so you'll want a higher frequency there. But north of Eglinton demand really drops off, so you could theoretically halve the frequency and still be ok, especially if you can run pretty tight frequencies south of Eglinton with ATC.

To offset some of the added construction cost, money could be diverted from the North Yonge Subway project, as that line would no longer be needed. The Yonge corridor south of RHC could instead be built as a Rapidway, consistent with the rest of the VIVA system.

 

[Streety McCarface]

That’s exactly what’s being proposed. Did you forget what thread you’re on? The only reason why it doesn’t go all the way at once is that is being proposed, planned, designed, built, and opened in phases.

My mistake, I thought @Neutrino was arguing against an extension. It's been a long day.

And it lends itself yet again to a *Metro* type of vehicle to run underground in tunnel downtown, and above grade in the north. Mainline compatible, an RER variant, and able to stone two birds with one kill. More if York Region cares to expand it.

I'm not sure this constitutes "metro" but moreso rapid transit since the proposal has it running as an elevated rather than along the Richmond Hill Line. New York city basically does the same thing on almost all its lines.