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Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

Panzerfaust said:
I would like to know this too. I can't see much benefit at all in an extension to Sherway, given how it's just a big mall and big box sprawl. Heh, bit of unintentional poetry there.

I've always thought a westward extension to West Mall and Dundas would be a lot more useful. It could have an intermediate stop at the Cloverdale Mall, since everyone seems obsessed with serving suburban malls, and possibly at Shorncliffe as well.

Thoughts?
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I couldn't imagine the extension not including Sherway. Shorncliffe, in the same geographic grid as Martin Grove is a logical spot to put a station. Follwing the rail corridor west of Kipling, you can clearly see that an elevated station could fit in right between Dundas and the train tracks. Western exits would provide access to Honeydale Mall, which may be absorbed into the Cloverdale complex eventually anyway.

From there the line could veer southwest and optionally have a stop at the intersection of North Queen and East Mall. Not much to look at now, but has tons of vacant or dying industrial lands ripe for mass-development. It's not a very long walk from the north end of the big-box strip on North Queen which includes Walmart and BestBuy.

Then the Sherway Gdns stop, with a mass terminal on the Mississauga border, just north of Trillium Hosp. The easternmost exits would lead directly into the mall (a la Queen north exits). Worry over routes as far north as Burnhamthrope getting down here are appeased by the 427 and private bus-only lanes that tunnel underneath the mall to the subway terminal.

A massive plan I know, but if the TTC weren't being misers this option would be the most beneficial to the greater number of people.

Is anyone in Brampton really going to sit on a bus for an hour and then sit on the subway for 45 minutes when an improved GO network could do the same trip in less than half the time?
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That's their reality now. $6.40 one way isn't something the avarage citizen can afford everytime they want to go into Toronto. Sometimes $4.50 with tickets will have to do, even if it's longer and less direct.

Why not branch the subway. Half the trains going to Sherway (and perhaps one day to Port Credit), and the other half running to MCC or Pearson.
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Interlining? If Eglinton is built as a subway to Pearson we'd only need improved frequency on the 192 bus. Also make them articulated to hold more passengers per trip.
 
Undying42 said:
I couldn't imagine the extension not including Sherway. Shorncliffe, in the same geographic grid as Martin Grove is a logical spot to put a station. Follwing the rail corridor west of Kipling, you can clearly see that an elevated station could fit in right between Dundas and the train tracks. Western exits would provide access to Honeydale Mall, which may be absorbed into the Cloverdale complex eventually anyway.
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The Honeydale Mall is going to be redeveloped into residential units. A much more worthy use, I think, given how the place is nearly dead these days.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2006/agendas/committees/et/et060913/it048.pdf

From there the line could veer southwest and optionally have a stop at the intersection of North Queen and East Mall. Not much to look at now, but has tons of vacant or dying industrial lands ripe for mass-development. It's not a very long walk from the north end of the big-box strip on North Queen which includes Walmart and BestBuy.
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But didn't you hear? No subway is ever viable unless it's standing room only from day one and people are being crowded off the platforms at every station! :rolleyes:

Then the Sherway Gdns stop, with a mass terminal on the Mississauga border, just north of Trillium Hosp. The easternmost exits would lead directly into the mall (a la Queen north exits). Worry over routes as far north as Burnhamthrope getting down here are appeased by the 427 and private bus-only lanes that tunnel underneath the mall to the subway terminal.
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Here is where I disagree. I am of the opinion that West Mall and Dundas is a far better place for a subway extension. The routes that would be coming along Dundas to Kipling can be intercepted right at the border of the city, saving time in mixed traffic for all of the people on board. There is a ton of room for bus terminals, an LRT terminal, park and ride lots, etc. It would require very little route restructuring on the part of MT. It is surrounded by industrial lands that can easily be redeveloped into high density residential or business usage.

Compare with Sherway Gardens. A gigantic mall, a big box strip, and not much else. The Gardiner Expressway cuts off most of the residential to the south-east that would otherwise be within walking distance. If Sherway is that important a destination, run a 190-series Rocket from West Mall Station down to the mall.
 
The whole point is that the bus routes can be rerouted, and unless Dundas is redeveloped with at least 30,000 TOD residential units (edit: and that's 30,000 between Dixie and the 427), a Sherway stop would be better. By the time the Hurontario LRT is done, most of the MT bus routes will probably have been rerouted, anyway, and those that run along Dundas can run to a station near Honeydale.
 
It is sad to see how completely clueless about MT and Mississauga that people can be to suggest that MT can have major terminal at Sherway.

Dundas must have 30,000 TOD units or otherwide bus serivce is not worth it? Did you pull that out of your ass?

Sherway would actually be farther than East Mall for most MT routes and force MT to eliminte service east of Dixie on Dundas, Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, and Rathburn.

Seriously people, learn how to read a map. This is getting very annoying.
 
Doady, for the millionth time, MT buses should run to whichever station is closest, not a bus terminal at an arbitrary point that will invariably add travel time for some people. Yes, Dundas east of Dixie would need tens of thousands of new residents to justify bypassing Sherway. If the line kept going past Sherway, it'd have a stop at Dixie & Dundas. Seriously, learn how to read forum posts.

edit - and I love how everyone keeps saying a couple hundred acres of Dundas' industrial lands can be redeveloped, but that apparently can't happen to the land around Sherway...even though it's already happening.
 
I agree, every MT vehicle doesn't have to fiter into the exact same terminal for the system to functionally operate. GO transit's able to serve the four northernmost Yonge stops with various routings indistinguishably. There's even more than one transit terminal for GO (Finch, York Mills). Wherever's most convenient for commuters to interchange at, that's where they'll choose to transfer. Much like Yorkdale, Scarborough [Town] Centre and Don Mills [Fairview] before it, Sherway Gdns has the limitless potential to mix commercial, business (office space) and mass commuter hub all-in-one.

A fledgling GO station that isn't directly linked to anything major would be worse than Warden in establishing pedestrian-friendly street life and density intensification. More importantly it cuts off a whole section of Etobicoke that currently endures limited service headways from a relatively quick trip downtown, which has a mall/retail area just as progressive as Yorkdale which has a subway link itself. ROW along West Mall or the 427 is just effortless (but far less expensive and counterintuitive) as building out BD to West Mall/Queensway on the city limits with Mississauga.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Doady, for the millionth time, MT buses should run to whichever station is closest, not a bus terminal at an arbitrary point that will invariably add travel time for some people.
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I think the point that doady has been making is that no matter where the extension westward goes along Dundas, it will save time for about 95% of the buses coming from Mississauga. For some it would make sense for it to go to another station, but the majority would likely be better off rerouting to whereever a new westward extension goes, meaning that some sort of terminal would be logical since dumping people off on the road doesn't work (as shown when the TTC kicked MT out of Islington back in the day). Every extension except for Sherway makes sense because there is very little benefit in the extension for most riders already since it means backtracking for most. The fact that Sherway only actually has one major bus serving it currently also speaks loads.

Seriously, learn how to read forum posts.
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There have been countless posts in this thread, and in other threads about how Sherway is the most logical place for an MT terminal b/c it's right on the border. The thing is, 99% of the people on this board probably haven't been on an MT bus in th last year, let alone "know" the route like most riders here do. The fact is, peopled need to stick with what they know.

and I love how everyone keeps saying a couple hundred acres of Dundas' industrial lands can be redeveloped, but that apparently can't happen to the land around Sherway...
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As we've seen time and time again, the people most likely to sell when developers come knocking are the small investors who own the falling apart stores that line major roads. The fact is, most of Dundas falls into that category. Sherway is full of parking lots for big companies that likely wouldn't want to sell since their costumers DRIVE there in the first place (Walmart/Old Nacy/Home Depot/Chapters/TD/Toys R' Us)

even though it's already happening.
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You keep saying this but WHERE is all this redevelopment exactly. There is one project involving four towers, a recent giant big box complex that puts Heartland to shame, and a mini-golf place that turned into a Coffee Time (about 8 years ago). Besides those three things, nothing has really changed in the area at all. While building the condos is a good step in the right direction (people actually inhabit the area now), there isn't really much left to develop besides that. The hydro corridor to the north eats away most of the land there, and the park/floodplain to the west takes away most of the land there. The only land left is for the lot facing where West Mall turns into a QEW onramp. Besides that, everything is big box/mall/parking lot, and since 90% of the spots are full every weekend, I'm willing to bet the corporations are willing to part with their costumer parking.
 
The next stop after Sherway would be Dixie & Dundas. The *only* reason to run a subway along Dundas instead of Sherway between East Mall and Dixie would be if tens of thousands of people move to new homes along Dundas east of Dixie, but the only redevelopment around there has been at Sherway. There aren't even any roads between Dixie and West Mall. Obviously, a terminal can go in the Honeydale area.

And I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of what will happen to all of these MT routes (both their alignments and their ridership) when the Hurontario LRT, all-day both way GO service, Transit City lines, etc., all get completed and regional services/fares are coordinated.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
The next stop after Sherway would be Dixie & Dundas. The *only* reason to run a subway along Dundas instead of Sherway between East Mall and Dixie would be if tens of thousands of people move to new homes along Dundas east of Dixie, but the only redevelopment around there has been at Sherway. There aren't even any roads between Dixie and West Mall. Obviously, a terminal can go in the Honeydale area.

And I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of what will happen to all of these MT routes (both their alignments and their ridership) when the Hurontario LRT, all-day both way GO service, Transit City lines, etc., all get completed and regional services/fares are coordinated.
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As I've said before, I have no problem with subway going to Sherway and then Dixie & Dundas. It's one option, running along Dundas is another. I'm not really picky about which option is chosen.

As for the effects on MT routes, let's see

Hurontario LRT: 19 Hurontario and 201 Hurontario Express eliminated. And that's pretty much it.

All-day 2-way GO service: probably (slightly) less demand on E-W routes serving the subway: 1 Dundas, 3 Bloor, 20 Rathburn, 26 Burnhamthorpe.

Transit City: no impact whatsoever
 
Take an MT route like 11...where on earth are they going or coming from via the Bloor line that the Georgetown GO line or Finch/Eglinton or god knows what else isn't helpful? Half the ridership on long, sparsely used suburban routes is composed of people who don't want to pay GO fares or cannot take GO because service sucks. All of these MT routes can use a terminal near the East Mall/Honeydale...the only theoretical reason for having a stop at Dundas & Wharton Way instead of Sherway is if enough thousands of people move into housing built over the Wharton area industrial park to cancel out losing the thousands of rides that Sherway with its parking lots and condos would generate.
 
11 Westwood is an excellent service that should be duplicated in other parts of the GTA. No GO train can get you from Bloor/Islington to Derry/Goreway in 15 minutes. None. The irony about your suburban GO statement, is that inner-416 GO is superior to the meandering, ever-stopping local TTC- which results in alot of Torontonians shaunting over to Rouge Hill or Long Branch in one-third the duration as any subway+bus combo can allot. If the TTC implemented some highway express feeders there wouldn't need be another subway, BRT would do the trick.
 
And the Georgetown line could get people from Malton to downtown a heck of a lot quicker than a subway/bus combo.

An aside: Between socialwoe/dentrobate/undying and realestatejunkie/vultur/investor/caveatemptor, this forum will soon run out of available handles.
 
Yet you know that I'm talking about individual routes...some could go to Islington, some could go to East Mall, some could go to Sherway, etc.
 
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