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Abeja de Almirante
Guest
I've read that the OCAP protesters have stabbed horses, though I don't know this from first hand knowledge.
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F
fiendishlibrarian
Guest
They also threw marbles under the horses' hooves to try to make them fall over.
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mpolo2
Guest
this is the kind of story the star lives for... go get'm Rosie Dimiano.
C
Canuck 36
Guest
One image I have ingrained in my head is an OCAP protest some years ago, and this angry old lady using her fist to hit the side of a police horse.
Any respect I had for OCAP drained from me that day.
Granted, it's a silly reason to lose respect for something (and there are probably deserving reasons why one should not respect them), but it's the truth.
Any respect I had for OCAP drained from me that day.
Granted, it's a silly reason to lose respect for something (and there are probably deserving reasons why one should not respect them), but it's the truth.
S
shawnmicallef
Guest
Canuck> I have more images in my head of police using horses at Queens Park to chase mothers with strollers into hedgerows.
I'm no fan of OCAP, but everything i saw that awful day was horses used as weapons against old people and the above-mentioned mothers.
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This was an awful thing, this guy ramming the horse. I wonder why we need horses though. Esp at Lawrence and Kingston road.
I'm no fan of OCAP, but everything i saw that awful day was horses used as weapons against old people and the above-mentioned mothers.
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This was an awful thing, this guy ramming the horse. I wonder why we need horses though. Esp at Lawrence and Kingston road.
F
fiendishlibrarian
Guest
^ What kind of idiot, other than a blindly partisan zealot who would rather make a cheap political point than keep their kids out of harm's way, brings their kids in strollers to a demonstration led by a group with a history of attracting people with masks, and wielding baseball bats while carrying bags full of bricks and rocks? You can't blame the horses or the officers on them if they were responding to the violent provocations of the cadre of violent agitators that form the core of many of OCAPs protests. If anything, the horses prevented the situation from getting worse as they are used for exactly the sort of crowd dispersal you describe. That's what they are used for, and why they now wear shields over their faces and legs because those very protestors either kicked, stabbed or tripped the horses' legs or threw marbles under them to try to trip them or disorient them. Then see what happens to those old people and kids when that takes place, and those "weapons" as you call them, are unable to do what they and their handlers are trained to do.
And to answer your question, horses are often used for several reasons. One, is that if you've ever seen them, they draw a crowd, especially kids. What better way to foster better relations than to have officers seen on a horse, rather in a car. The second is that horses can traverse areas like parks and ravines better than officers on bikes can. And with the snow on the ground, horses are ideal for that sort of thing. Personally, I hope this POS, if he's found guilty, gets the severest penalty they can find. It wasn't as if he hit them accidentally. He deliberately circled back, and just rammed that horse. The officer riding him would likely have been killed as well if the horse hadn't taken the brunt of the impact.
And to answer your question, horses are often used for several reasons. One, is that if you've ever seen them, they draw a crowd, especially kids. What better way to foster better relations than to have officers seen on a horse, rather in a car. The second is that horses can traverse areas like parks and ravines better than officers on bikes can. And with the snow on the ground, horses are ideal for that sort of thing. Personally, I hope this POS, if he's found guilty, gets the severest penalty they can find. It wasn't as if he hit them accidentally. He deliberately circled back, and just rammed that horse. The officer riding him would likely have been killed as well if the horse hadn't taken the brunt of the impact.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
This is reaching, but maybe the woman with the stroller came up to see the horse and didn't notice the protest swelling?
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fiendishlibrarian
Guest
In a context of massed crowds, banners, police lines and barricades? Unlikely, to say the least. Some of those kids were political cannon fodder, used for effect by their parents in case something went wrong and could then be used to level accusations of police brutality while evading responsibility for putting their children in such a situation.
S
shawnmicallef
Guest
You can look at it partisan-ly any way you want. It was a big protest, lots of different groups, not just OCAP. Church groups, etc.
F
fiendishlibrarian
Guest
Well, you're known by the company you keep is all I'm saying. If those other groups didn't realize that, then they were either naive or stupid.
C
Canuck 36
Guest
shawnmicallef - whether or not the horses were used as weapons hardly justifies injuring them (though I doubt one granny fist inflicted any notice from the animal, I mean in more general context of protests where they are stabbed, one attempts to trip thm, etc.)
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Maybe the woman with the stroller was blind?
S
shawnmicallef
Guest
No no, nobody should hit the horses, grannies or punks. I suspect, is-all, that some of the hitting you saw was self-defense.
That was a scary day (scarb> I was actually on my way to human resources at queens park that day -- in 2000 i thought i wanted to be a civil servant -- so perhaps there were people caught in the "crossfire" but I think most of the moms were there as part of various groups associated with the demo). Some of the punks, on the other hand, weren't acting in self-defense i'm sure. I was hanging out on the periphery with the moms and old church folk, when this area, well removed from the violence at the front, was charged by horses. Worst day of my Toronto existance. For a year I couldn't walk across queens park because it brought up so many disturbing images.
Lots of demos have children and families. That's what makes them great -- it's "normal people" (ie, middle-canada) protesting. Those huge gulf war demos in 2003 were like family parades. The 2000 one was no different.
That was a scary day (scarb> I was actually on my way to human resources at queens park that day -- in 2000 i thought i wanted to be a civil servant -- so perhaps there were people caught in the "crossfire" but I think most of the moms were there as part of various groups associated with the demo). Some of the punks, on the other hand, weren't acting in self-defense i'm sure. I was hanging out on the periphery with the moms and old church folk, when this area, well removed from the violence at the front, was charged by horses. Worst day of my Toronto existance. For a year I couldn't walk across queens park because it brought up so many disturbing images.
Lots of demos have children and families. That's what makes them great -- it's "normal people" (ie, middle-canada) protesting. Those huge gulf war demos in 2003 were like family parades. The 2000 one was no different.
B
building babel
Guest
B
BrianHawkins1
Guest
Based on first-hand reports I've heard, and on the footage that many of us saw, that incident at Queen's Park was truly terrible - disturbingly similar to a Chicago'68-style police riot. It is fairly widely suspected that prior to the rally, Harris' gov't instructed the cops to beat up the crowd, regardless of their actual behaviour (which was indeed provocative, as it turns out).
However...
"Lots of demos have children and families. That's what makes them great"
Are you kidding me? A confrontational political demonstration has got to be almost the last place imaginable where it's appropriate to bring an infant. Demonstrations are great because they are free expressions of political will and opinion from *adults*, not because they're family events.
"Some of those kids were political cannon fodder, used for effect by their parents in case something went wrong and could then be used to level accusations of police brutality while evading responsibility for putting their children in such a situation."
Absolutely right. Despite the recently established 'my-kids-anywhere-at-any-time-and-screw-you-if-you-don't-like-it' mantra that drives so much parenting nowadays, there are definitely still times and places where bringing children is just plain wrong for obvious reasons. 'Fronting' with a child who is evidently far too young to have any real idea what the hell is going on around them at a political rally is utterly contemptible in my opinion. Bringing a kid to certain kinds of 'harmless', peaceful rallies, is fine - but not more 'aggressive' ones with a charged atmosphere. A few years ago, I saw a big Palestinian march in NY moving across the Brooklyn Bridge towards City Hall square, headed by a bunch of pre-pubescent kids waving flags and chanting nationalist slogans, their beaming parents right behind them. Does that sort of thing not make you even the slightest bit uncomfortable? Those fools with strollers at Queen's Park weren't so different.
"Those huge gulf war demos in 2003 were like family parades."
I can't comment on what may have happened in TO, but I marched in the huge one in NY in February '03 and there were *very* few kids present, if any. That was decidedly NOT a proper environment for a young child, and virtually everyone there grasped this obvious fact. An angry political march simply should not double as a nursery, period.
However...
"Lots of demos have children and families. That's what makes them great"
Are you kidding me? A confrontational political demonstration has got to be almost the last place imaginable where it's appropriate to bring an infant. Demonstrations are great because they are free expressions of political will and opinion from *adults*, not because they're family events.
"Some of those kids were political cannon fodder, used for effect by their parents in case something went wrong and could then be used to level accusations of police brutality while evading responsibility for putting their children in such a situation."
Absolutely right. Despite the recently established 'my-kids-anywhere-at-any-time-and-screw-you-if-you-don't-like-it' mantra that drives so much parenting nowadays, there are definitely still times and places where bringing children is just plain wrong for obvious reasons. 'Fronting' with a child who is evidently far too young to have any real idea what the hell is going on around them at a political rally is utterly contemptible in my opinion. Bringing a kid to certain kinds of 'harmless', peaceful rallies, is fine - but not more 'aggressive' ones with a charged atmosphere. A few years ago, I saw a big Palestinian march in NY moving across the Brooklyn Bridge towards City Hall square, headed by a bunch of pre-pubescent kids waving flags and chanting nationalist slogans, their beaming parents right behind them. Does that sort of thing not make you even the slightest bit uncomfortable? Those fools with strollers at Queen's Park weren't so different.
"Those huge gulf war demos in 2003 were like family parades."
I can't comment on what may have happened in TO, but I marched in the huge one in NY in February '03 and there were *very* few kids present, if any. That was decidedly NOT a proper environment for a young child, and virtually everyone there grasped this obvious fact. An angry political march simply should not double as a nursery, period.