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Novel Coronavirus COVID-19 (nCoV-2019)

zang

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This is as oversimplified as the comment you were replying to is.

First of all, small businesses are largely falling by the wayside and the help offered them has in some cases been beyond inadequate.
It is inadequate. But the money being spent to fight this on the medical front could’ve easily gone into supporting businesses and individuals from the very beginning. Instead, it’s been dribbles and drabs.

More money? Is it growing on trees now or are we still adding digits to computers to manufacture the stuff?
Money isn't free....but why let long-term consequences get in the way of reactionary panic?
“Reactionary panic” betrays your true feelings about all of this.

That some might place so much emphasis on adding debt in a crisis, shows they believe well being, health and prosperity have limited value

We funded a war with bonds, why the hell can’t we do that now?

Ask the abused children forced into homes with their abusers about their privilege. Or if they feel like "everything is destroyed".
But don't ask them now. Aske them in 20 years when their health outcomes are a horror show and impact society at large through crime, homelessness, mental health issues and addiction.
My comment was direct personally at the newb making ignorant statements. You’re the one pulling the whataboutism here.

I am a survivor of childhood abuse. The eldest son of a f-ed up sociopathic narcissist who made it quite evident that children were never in his plans. Please don’t lecture me on abuse. There are groups suffering through this, yes. But does that mean we let a deadly virus run rampant when there are other ways we can support those being abused?

Abuse is terrible, but it’s not something that can’t be treated or repaired or overcome.

Death on the other hand is permanent.

Or if that's too dire to contemplate, ask the generation of children in key development years who are missing very necessary opportunities for socialisation. Again, though, you'll have to wait for the result. Hope you're patient!
Perhaps you missed my pro-in-person-school advocacy a few months back in the Ford forum? A school of psychology professors at our disposal and just two weeks into online schooling and our 8 year old is back to having daily mental breakdowns and self-harm.

The crap so many are complaining about (like yours about having to make an appointment to go hiking) just shows how f-ing self centred so many are about this. Some are making pretty big sacrifices to save lives; don’t assume you’re the only one.

Y’know what? I’ve had enough of your selfish contrarianism. Please don’t bother.
 

afransen

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You’re so wrong about that. Calorie value per dollar is a big concern for many struggling to put food on the table. I know you like to place many a thing on personal responsibility, but this has long been a known food security issue. I’m not going to argue beyond that except to tell you to go read any of the dozens of studies on this.


Judge much?
A lot of people claim that they can only afford to eat at McDonalds. You can cook for yourself for less and eat better, but things like rice and beans are going to be a staple so you can afford vegetables and some meat. Trouble is many people are never taught how to cook, and that is intergeneration poverty driving that (particularly when working class parents are single and working irregular hours). There are ~3600 calories in a kg of dry rice, which can be had for about a dollar.

If we cared about poverty we would be teaching home economics and financial literacy in schools. Even children of middle-class families often leave school/home being nearly clueless about how to handle their finances and 'adulting'. They usually learn eventually, the hard way, and maybe only after burying themselves in credit card debt on useless crap they didn't need.
 

SunriseChampion

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You’re so wrong about that. Calorie value per dollar is a big concern for many struggling to put food on the table. I know you like to place many a thing on personal responsibility, but this has long been a known food security issue. I’m not going to argue beyond that except to tell you to go read any of the dozens of studies on this.
Rice, beans, lentils. Great caloric value per dollar.

It's a lazy excuse.

Judge much?
People's eating habits? Yeah, I do. I think that's what that line you quoted was, eh?
 

lenaitch

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Getting mould from over-humidifying would be no joke.

AoD

If able to, get a UV light attached inside your furnace's air ducts.

hvac-uv-light.jpg

From link.



Warning: The UV light must be sealed from you or pets vision.

S'ok, folks. All is fine. I was making a funny. Our hygrometer says our house is in the low to mid 40s.
 

Northern Light

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It is inadequate. But the money being spent to fight this on the medical front could’ve easily gone into supporting businesses and individuals from the very beginning. Instead, it’s been dribbles and drabs.


“Reactionary panic” betrays your true feelings about all of this.

That some might place so much emphasis on adding debt in a crisis, shows they believe well being, health and prosperity have limited value

We funded a war with bonds, why the hell can’t we do that now?


My comment was direct personally at the newb making ignorant statements. You’re the one pulling the whataboutism here.

I am a survivor of childhood abuse. The eldest son of a f-ed up sociopathic narcissist who made it quite evident that children were never in his plans. Please don’t lecture me on abuse. There are groups suffering through this, yes. But does that mean we let a deadly virus run rampant when there are other ways we can support those being abused?

Abuse is terrible, but it’s not something that can’t be treated or repaired or overcome.

Death on the other hand is permanent.


Perhaps you missed my pro-in-person-school advocacy a few months back in the Ford forum? A school of psychology professors at our disposal and just two weeks into online schooling and our 8 year old is back to having daily mental breakdowns and self-harm.

The crap so many are complaining about (like yours about having to make an appointment to go hiking) just shows how f-ing self centred so many are about this. Some are making pretty big sacrifices to save lives; don’t assume you’re the only one.

Y’know what? I’ve had enough of your selfish contrarianism. Please don’t bother.


You're an intelligent poster; so is @SunriseChampion

You two are both purposefully talking past one another rather than to each other.

You're both being disrespectful to one another and its not leading anywhere constructive.
 

Max Sterling

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Rapid testing is not a panacea. 1 in 5 rapid tests is inaccurate. How safe is a fortress under constant siege when 1 of 5 gates is unlocked?

It would still be better than what we're doing now and it would allow people to be tested daily or more than once daily if needed when you could get back tests results so quickly, so that if you hypothetically test negative in the morning and then in the afternoon during a retest you get a positive, then you could be pulled and take another more accurate test and see if its an actual positive or not. That to me is more effective than what we're doing now.


Brilliant idea, except for:

a) Indentured servitude is not in their contracts.
b) You'd be paying them a minimum of 3x what they're being paid now for their time.
c) You'd lose a good number of them switching to that model.
d) They're human beings with lives. Friends, families, pets, responsibilities, other jobs, etc.
e) You're imposing a massive inconvenience on them so the mild-moderate inconvenience you're currently experiencing doesn't have to happen.

That's why I said if worst comes to worst this could be implemented if needed. IE say for the LTC home on Victoria Pk and McNicoll that has recently experienced dozens of deaths. I'd say that home would benefit from having their workers stay with their patients and limiting the amount of people going in and out.

Also there's plenty of people working in jobs that take them away from their families for weeks or months at a time. Did you suddenly forget about all those migrant workers we bring in every year to work Ontario's farms that spend months here living in tight quarters doing hard labor and aren't getting paid great wages? But asking a PSW to do one week on and one week off for a short period of time is too much of a hardship? OK.

As for paying more, you seem to have no problems with wasting billions in stopping society from working needlessly, so why not spend a few billion more on something to help LTC patients?

Great idea. Let's overhaul and reengineer hospitals. Are you aware of the logistics of gas delivery (nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) in a hospital? How much an ICU room costs to build? How much infrastructure would need to change within those buildings to accommodate a specific disease?

Why would you need to overhaul and reengineer hospitals? You're just placing similar patients together so that they don't spread the virus to other non-covid patients and workers. You have the same number of beds and ICU spaces just that you're reallocating those beds differently, so I don't know why you're talking about overhauling hospitals. Most people who are in hospital for the virus don't require ICU beds, so why not house them together?

As it is now, most hospitals are already currently segregated into Covid/Non-Covid areas. What you're suggesting is redundant and costly.

And yet they still see some spread in hospitals because when you have covid and non-covid patients, there's always a chance of spread compared to removing all covid patients from some hospitals and allowing them to operate mostly normally and taking care of non-covid patients and not worry about the virus nearly as much.

Healthy eating is a privilege of wealth for most.

WTF?!?!? Are you buying the best organic foods from Whole Foods exclusively or something? 😅 In what world is 'healthy eating a privilege of the wealthy'?!?!?! I'm SAVING A TON OF MONEY by eating healthier. I go to No Frills, Food Basics and a couple of asisn supermarkets for most of my groceries and I don't spend much per month. Nearly every week at least one place has 10lb bags of potatoes, carrots or onions for $2-4 or $1 pasta and sauces or different vegetables on discount. I only buy things when they're on sale and then I stock up on things that can be stored long term. Most of the fish and meat I eat I only buy if its been discounted 30-50% off.

Also when I cook I usually make a big batch of something and then have it for the next several days and if I get bored of it, I'll throw in something different for a day or two. I don't know maybe you and alot of other people need to eat food that's the freshest and most premium or something, but my food bills have gone down since I cut out junkfood more, bought less takeout and started cooking more and buying stuff only when its on sale. Not that hard to do if you want to do it.

As for exercise I just do some basic stuff in my living for 20-30 mins a day and/or take a walk around my neighborhood. Easy, free and relaxing.

I'm well aware of what they did. Are you aware that per-capita our Covid problem has been worse than theirs? At almost every single point in the past year? They reacted faster and were able to avoid a lot of problems early on. Don't act like they're in the same boat we are. They're much better off, even now in the middle of a huge spike. The worse the problem, the greater the reaction. Why is that hard to get?

It was the opposite. In the minds of many in Japan and around the world, they thought the Japanese government didn't react fast or effectively enough when they didn't go into full shutdown mode like they did in many parts of the world. In the end the virus didn't hit them nearly as hard as other nations not because of the action or inaction of the government, but because their population was largely healthy enough to not be hugely effected by the virus, something that you can't seem to understand and/or want to acknowledge. Namely health is the predominate deciding factor in how well one can deal with the virus.

And you still don't the see cultural differences driving how things work there. The fearmongering we're doing here is because people *just aren't listening*. People in Japan listen strictly to what their government asks (not tells) them to do. They don't need to be told twice; they don't need to have strict laws enforced with force or threat. They already know that failure to comply comes with a shame that can destroy their lives. That you can't seem to get that and keep implying all we have to do is be like Japan can only be chalked up to ignorance now.

Welll apparently no one told the Japanese population that social distancing and not gathering in large crowds was necessary that's for sure, otherwise there wouldn't be countless videos on youtube showing the Japanese living their lives in a largely normal manner. Interesting how they can pack their trains and buses and walk around without staying apart and they're not dropping like flies while our government is telling Canadians that we have to keep apart every damn day. Can you please explain that part?

If you can get the entire population of Canada to act exactly as the Japanese would act, then by all means I'll agree with you. In the mean time, stop.

Place Canada's population in Japan and Japan's population in Canada and I bet you a billion dollars Japan's covid deaths will dramatically rise while Canada's covid deaths would dramatically fall and that would mostly have to do with that fact that generally the Japanese are healthier than Canadians. The response to the virus manners much less than the health of a population and we've seen that time and again in practically every nation.

And its also the reason why the entire continent of Africa with a 1.2 billion population is still at about 75,000 deaths. Is every single African nation collectively responding more effectively than all western countries or is it perhaps as simple as a healthy, young population isn't nearly as affected as much older and less healthy western populations?

Destroy everything? Do you still have a home? A job? Most people still do. It's been especially hard on low-income groups and small business, but that is a problem that could be treated with more money from the province and feds. Don't act like the country is a pile of rubble. An inconvenience to you is not "destroying everything". Check your privilege, yo.

You apparently don't give a crap about low-income people, small business or anyone else when you keep characterizing all the damage that's been done to people's lives as being a 'minor inconvenience'. Imagine allowing most of the general population to continue to work and simply protecting the elderly and sick as best you can without going overboard like we have now, how much less damage we would've done to ourselves?

All hundreds of billions we've spent and will continue to spend fighting and paying for the virus could've been significantly offset by the money continuing to come in to pay for everything and the results in deaths and overall impact would've been the same if not better if the population were allowed to continue living.
 

Jonny5

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Welll apparently no one told the Japanese population that social distancing and not gathering in large crowds was necessary that's for sure, otherwise there wouldn't be countless videos on youtube showing the Japanese living their lives in a largely normal manner. Interesting how they can pack their trains and buses and walk around without staying apart and they're not dropping like flies while our government is telling Canadians that we have to keep apart every damn day. Can you please explain that part?
Sometimes YouTube and COVID-19 niche fandom Twitter are only a curated reality that give you what you expect to believe is true. When you check in with the real world you will find cases in Japan are exploding, and they are begining to enforce what you call draconian measures, and, frankly, panic. They now even face the consideration of cancelling the Olympic Games, which would be an economic disaster and national humiliation. They look like the Governent of Ontario three weeks ago; heads up their butts in denial as everything falls apart deflecting blame saying "but everything looked fine on my recommended to watch list of YouTube videos!"

 
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zang

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It would still be better than what we're doing now and it would allow people to be tested daily or more than once daily if needed when you could get back tests results so quickly, so that if you hypothetically test negative in the morning and then in the afternoon during a retest you get a positive, then you could be pulled and take another more accurate test and see if its an actual positive or not. That to me is more effective than what we're doing now.

It’s not the false positives that are the problem, it’s the false negatives.
The entirety of the US White House staff have being rapid-tested. How well has that worked out in containing spread amongst relatively young and healthy people?

That's why I said if worst comes to worst this could be implemented if needed. IE say for the LTC home on Victoria Pk and McNicoll that has recently experienced dozens of deaths. I'd say that home would benefit from having their workers stay with their patients and limiting the amount of people going in and out.
So, you’re going to tell a bunch of people who work a fairly low-paying job that they now have to upend their lives instantaneously for that job? Do you know anyone with HR or employment law experience? That’s a material change in employment that could be construed as constructive dismissal. Just from a legal standpoint alone it’s a headache.

Also there's plenty of people working in jobs that take them away from their families for weeks or months at a time.
…that was in their job description when they signed up for it, and not forced on them.

Why do you think the military was sent in to a public health emergency? They can’t object.
Did you suddenly forget about all those migrant workers we bring in every year to work Ontario's farms that spend months here living in tight quarters doing hard labor and aren't getting paid great wages? But asking a PSW to do one week on and one week off for a short period of time is too much of a hardship? OK.
Did you suddenly forget about all those LTC care workers who quit and abandoned their jobs when outbreaks first started happening? Some decided the job isn't worth it.
As for paying more, you seem to have no problems with wasting billions in stopping society from working needlessly, so why not spend a few billion more on something to help LTC patients?
Whether "wasting" spending money to keep people home, or spending it on current medical response, long term disability payments, unemployment, rebuilding the economy, the economic toll of millions off work while ill, we’re not getting past this pandemic without spending huge sums of money.

One way has the potential to save lives. The other is damage control.
Why would you need to overhaul and reengineer hospitals? You're just placing similar patients together so that they don't spread the virus to other non-covid patients and workers. You have the same number of beds and ICU spaces just that you're reallocating those beds differently, so I don't know why you're talking about overhauling hospitals. Most people who are in hospital for the virus don't require ICU beds, so why not house them together?
Okay, take Air. Every patient in for Covid (ICU or not) is being given high oxygen saturation air. That is piped from a giant liquid oxygen tank outside of the building (maybe you’ve noticed them at hospitals before). Currently, hospitals are not designed to be able to supply oxygen to every single person on a floor at once. Extensive retrofitting of pipe work is needed to expand capacity dramatically. Not only that, because it’s pure oxygen it’s a major explosive hazard, that retrofitting needs to be redundantly safe (being an explosive hazard is one of the reasons that giant tank is on the outside of the building, by the way).

So let’s say you rip out walls to retrofit bigger pipes. You also then need to either build more exterior tanks, or be ready to accept many, many more deliveries to refill those tanks (each time a potential safety hazard). Look at the huge tanks at NHS' Nightingale (all Covid) hospital: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...id-oxygen-tanks-NHS-Nightingale-hospital.html

Okay, so you decide to bring in individual tanks instead of retrofit the whole system. Those tanks (gas and not liquid, because liquid requires strict cooling) require magnitudes more storage space per patient than and each tank poses an explosive hazard on their own. So there are additional storage requirements and the safety around that. And if you aren't aware, there's a supply chain problem with oxygen these days (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...leneck-hospitals-cope-intense-demand-n1253277). Being able to secure it in bulk liquid is going to be much easier than getting it in tanks.

That’s just one element. Then there’s the morgue space (morgues are already filling up; I can’t imagine the problem in a hospital dedicated strictly to Covid). And there's an ambulance system that needs to be dedicated strictly for covid patients, and the logistics of that. And many, many other things.

I get you think your ideas are clever, but they’re unable to withstand a cursory scratch of scrutiny.
And yet they still see some spread in hospitals because when you have covid and non-covid patients, there's always a chance of spread compared to removing all covid patients from some hospitals and allowing them to operate mostly normally and taking care of non-covid patients and not worry about the virus nearly as much.

But you’re never going to completely keep Covid from entering a given hospital. Do you not get that? A car accident victim comes in requiring immediate life-saving surgery, do you wait 15 minutes for a rapid test result?

WTF?!?!? Are you buying the best organic foods from Whole Foods exclusively or something?
😅
In what world is 'healthy eating a privilege of the wealthy'?!?!?! I'm SAVING A TON OF MONEY by eating healthier.
You had money to save to begin with. Do you not recognize the privilege in which you stand? You've already got the time and money to be able to shout about being able to save money on an internet forum dedicated to architecture and engineering. Ponder that for a moment. Do you know anyone who’s actually been truly poor? A family one paycheque away from homelessness?

You think I’m making this up? Do you think eating only rice and beans is a healthy diet (about as much as eating meat only for every meal)? Multiple studies confirm this:


Those blaming it on a lack of education or will are just being ignorant.
 
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zang

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It was the opposite. In the minds of many in Japan and around the world, they thought the Japanese government didn't react fast or effectively enough when they didn't go into full shutdown mode like they did in many parts of the world. In the end the virus didn't hit them nearly as hard as other nations not because of the action or inaction of the government, but because their population was largely healthy enough to not be hugely effected by the virus, something that you can't seem to understand and/or want to acknowledge. Namely health is the predominate deciding factor in how well one can deal with the virus.

Prove it. Go ahead, I'll wait. And I'll point out once again, one of the best diets in the world and only 0.4% difference in the hospitalization rate from ours. Keep ignoring that because it doesn't fit with your belief that all we need to do is eat healthier.

Consider maybe, just maybe, because Asia (and also Africa, because you wish to bring them up now as well) has/have had a recent history of epidemics that they didn't hesitate to react and were better prepared?

Also of note: pretty much anyone during that time exhibiting cold-like symptoms will have–with astounding likeliness–already been wearing a mask, inside or outside, as that is the social norm. Ontario didn't mandate masks until July 7th, 2020

Japan:
January 16th (day 0): First Covid case.
January 24th (day 8): Prime Minister Abe convened a meeting on covid response and made the public statement "I ask that the public strictly adhere to prevention measures against the common cold and behave calmly without overly reacting.”
January 30th (day 14): They create the "Novel Coronavirus Response Headquarters" (response team)
February 13th (day 28): Emergency response financial support package announced.
February 25th (day 40): Decision is made to ask companies to work from home if possible, and for those with cold-like symptoms to stay home.
February 27th (day 42): Mandate the closure of all areas of large gatherings (schools, etc.).

Ontario/Canada:
January 25th (day 0): First case of covid in Canada
March 4th (day 39): Trudeau convenes first covid meeting. There's no statement directed to the public.
March 12th (day 47): Schools mandated closed in Ontario
March 12th (day 47): work from home (if non-essential) mandated in Ontario
March 18th (day 53): Canada announces financial support package
March 25th (day 60): Ontario announces financial support package
March 28th (day 63): Ban on large gatherings in Ontario

You'll note the more than a month of difference in response times? They acted from almost day one. We waited a month before really doing anything.
Regardless of how slowly the Japanese believe they reacted, it was still *faster* than us. It took us a month to get even half the people here wearing masks *voluntarily*.
Welll apparently no one told the Japanese population that social distancing and not gathering in large crowds was necessary that's for sure, otherwise there wouldn't be countless videos on youtube showing the Japanese living their lives in a largely normal manner. Interesting how they can pack their trains and buses and walk around without staying apart and they're not dropping like flies while our government is telling Canadians that we have to keep apart every damn day. Can you please explain that part?
Look, Torontonians living their lives in a largely normal matter, (a good number without masks) on August 21st in the middle of a pandemic.
During that time we had indoor dining and only modest restrictions on gatherings, btw.

Also, you keep ignoring the parts where the Japanese are in a panic right now because of a fast surge in cases that is on par with some of our lowest per-capita numbers.

I'm sure a few months back you were also saying we should be following Sweden's model, too.

Please, refer to "confirmation bias".

Place Canada's population in Japan and Japan's population in Canada and I bet you a billion dollars Japan's covid deaths will dramatically rise while Canada's covid deaths would dramatically fall and that would mostly have to do with that fact that generally the Japanese are healthier than Canadians. The response to the virus manners much less than the health of a population and we've seen that time and again in practically every nation.

Again, 0.4% difference in hospitalization rates. Health has little (if anything to do with it).
And its also the reason why the entire continent of Africa with a 1.2 billion population is still at about 75,000 deaths. Is every single African nation collectively responding more effectively than all western countries or is it perhaps as simple as a healthy, young population isn't nearly as affected as much older and less healthy western populations?

You apparently don't give a crap about low-income people, small business or anyone else when you keep characterizing all the damage that's been done to people's lives as being a 'minor inconvenience'. Imagine allowing most of the general population to continue to work and simply protecting the elderly and sick as best you can without going overboard like we have now, how much less damage we would've done to ourselves?
I directed "inconvenience" at you personally (see my above comments about privilege). And yes, Africa has a lot of experience dealing with epidemics.

For some it's worse than others. If you worked from home before, it's not all that much different. If you worked in an office, you're likely having Zoom meetings.

The low-income groups are the ones being hit hardest (perhaps you missed where I said that?). How much of an inconvenience would it really be for them though if rent/income support were fully matched at the government level to support those losing jobs and staying home? The same for small business?

Instead, we create crappy plans where landlords got to decide if they wanted to evict and sue or get 75% of the rent from the government. Or the month it took after lockdown to get CERB out, and only to those who applied and were eligible (thereby alienating anyone working under the table).

We should've been better than we are. Blame lays on the governments involved, and not the restrictions they placed.

All hundreds of billions we've spent and will continue to spend fighting and paying for the virus could've been significantly offset by the money continuing to come in to pay for everything and the results in deaths and overall impact would've been the same if not better if the population were allowed to continue living.
You're still "living". 2 million people worldwide aren't.

Perhaps you might also want to look south of our border to see how well resisting restrictions in the name of "continuing living" has worked out? Has their economy fared just fine? How long are those lines at Texas food banks now?

But you're right, we should've spent more and earlier, and combined with having DONE more earlier, avoided a lot of what we've gone through. Unfortunately, too many people still aren't being supported and we've been too easy in our restrictions, requiring a repeat and stricter measures for much longer.
 
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AlvinofDiaspar

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I directed "inconvenience" at you personally (see my above comments about privilege). And yes, Africa has a lot of experience dealing with epidemics.

Not only that - but some countries in Africa - like Nigeria - are actually at the bleeding edge of epidemiological response historically:


We are sitting on our smug pedestals - when we are actually comparative laggards to countries with much less resources than we do. And we have no excuse given what we had experienced during SARS.

AoD
 
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