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North American union

I never want to see the day where there is further integration between Canada and the United States, other than the ability to more freely move between the nations as individuals. An American citizen who is fed up with the United States should be more freely able to move north, and I also think the vice versa should be true. If Canadians see a need to move to LA or Florida to either go into the movies or get old, go for it.

Our immigration systems should take into account our common heritage, yet clearly separate identities and unique standing in the world.

Canada is and always should be a totally sovereign, independent, and socially different nation than the United States.

The only tragedy I could see happening in the future is if some kind of economic depression occurred and Canadians started being forced economically into some kind of agreement to accept the American dollar and thus a domino effect starts for some union movement.

I'd be totally against that, because markets are cyclical and the Canadian market can always rebound and it doesn't need to be attached and integrated with the US to do so.

The United States has plenty of devastated localized economies that are masked under a nationally growing economy because America is the present day Rome. The United States is too large to see these economic inequalities on paper, you have to visit these communities to understand the fact that the US economy simply doesn't work for everyone.

I refuse to believe Canada adopting a North American currency or the US Dollar will help Canada in any way, shape, or form.
 
BrandonTO416 said:
I never want to see the day where there is further integration between Canada and the United States, other than the ability to more freely move between the nations as individuals. An American citizen who is fed up with the United States should be more freely able to move north, and I also think the vice versa should be true. If Canadians see a need to move to LA or Florida to either go into the movies or get old, go for it.

Our immigration systems should take into account our common heritage, yet clearly separate identities and unique standing in the world.

Canada is and always should be a totally sovereign, independent, and socially different nation than the United States.

The only tragedy I could see happening in the future is if some kind of economic depression occurred and Canadians started being forced economically into some kind of agreement to accept the American dollar and thus a domino effect starts for some union movement.

I'd be totally against that, because markets are cyclical and the Canadian market can always rebound and it doesn't need to be attached and integrated with the US to do so.

The United States has plenty of devastated localized economies that are masked under a nationally growing economy because America is the present day Rome. The United States is too large to see these economic inequalities on paper, you have to visit these communities to understand the fact that the US economy simply doesn't work for everyone.

I refuse to believe Canada adopting a North American currency or the US Dollar will help Canada in any way, shape, or form.
Click to expand...


On one hand you point out that we have a common heritage that justifies special treatment for American citizens and then you say that "Canada is and always should be a totally sovereign, independent, and socially different nation than the United States." Which is it?

As I have pointed out in the other thread, the United States' problems are for it to solve on its own. We would not expect nor tolerate US involvement in Canada's domestic affairs ... ie on say Quebec, native issues, inter-governmental squabbling. Likewise we should stay out of the business of other countries, particularly so, if they are our best friends, and more so if they are significantly larger and more powerful than us.

You advocate setting up Canada as a refuge for US citizens. I would argue that this runs counter to Canada's interest. We want to avoid further Americanization of our culture. How would allowing in more Americans facilitate that goal? It seems the dreams of Manifest Destiny are taking on new forms these days....Personally, as an immigrant, I like our British heritage and would like to keep it that way. It has made us the tolerant, moderate society that we are today.

US citizens are afforded plenty of special privileges under NAFTA, I see no need to take this any further than that. If American citizens such as yourself, feel that your country is on the wrong path, I suggest you use the tools of democracy to alter that course. The US is a democratic, wealthy nation. I see no need for its citizens to take refuge elsewhere in the world.

For the record I am against a monetary union with the US, because I believe that such a union would be dominated by Washington and because I would not want the US' disastrous fiscal policies moving past the 49th parallel. Most business groups are also coming about to this view after watching the recent meltdown. Though I am sure we will hear their shrill voices once the US economy picks up steam again....
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Personally, I would have no problem whatsoever with Americans taking over responsibility for the ports of entry into Canada. I know a lot of people would see that as taking away some of our sovereignty, which it is, but it would make everything easier for everyone. We might not do the same thing on the Mexican side, but they could, and then the Americans could watch the Mexican border with, erm, whatever is on the south side of Mexico.
Click to expand...

Let's see. California and Canada are roughly the same in population and GDP. I can't think of anything the U.S. has that I cannot live without. Also, my opinion is that we have a superior form of government. Yes, we must change the Senate and go to proportional representation but that is doable. We need to maintain our sovereignty over our resources, the Arctic and our water resources. Also, we don't need more than our own national cultural values. Yes, our leftist politicians do "cherry pick" when it comes to culture but that too is yet to be addressed. For leftists some 'rights' are more politically correct than others. It would benefit Canadians greatly if our politicians and citizens had a more complete understanding of our history and historic cultures. Then perhaps there would be less dissension between urban and rural cultures in Canada. I think the U.S. is good to have as a friend but we can only be friends, not lovers.
 
zeister said:
Let's see. California and Canada are roughly the same in population and GDP. I can't think of anything the U.S. has that I cannot live without. Also, my opinion is that we have a superior form of government. Yes, we must change the Senate and go to proportional representation but that is doable. We need to maintain our sovereignty over our resources, the Arctic and our water resources. Also, we don't need more than our own national cultural values. Yes, our leftist politicians do "cherry pick" when it comes to culture but that too is yet to be addressed. For leftists some 'rights' are more politically correct than others. It would benefit Canadians greatly if our politicians and citizens had a more complete understanding of our history and historic cultures. Then perhaps there would be less dissension between urban and rural cultures in Canada. I think the U.S. is good to have as a friend but we can only be friends, not lovers.
Click to expand...

What does governance have to do with this? All the states of the European Union have their own governments. That hasn't changed.
 
The difference in the EU is that it is not completely dominated by one player. Any NA union inevitably would, so all policies of an NA union would reflect only the interests of the USA.

I would sooner sanction Canada joining the EU...
 
afransen,
Definitely, Canada would be better off joining the EU than the U.S. I lived in the Netherlands from 1996-2000 and I found I had more in common with the EU's approach to union than we would have with the U.S. Canada would be swamped in any union with the U.S.
 
Fine, let's the join the EU then. Then I'll be a citizen of the EU through two countries :)
 
We'd sooner have a chance at North American Union than the EU.....

The Europeans like to keep their club exclusive....as in excluding anyone outside Europe and who is not Christian......just look at their treatment of Turkey.....
 
Canada joining the EU? Come on.
We might aswell invite New Zealand and South Africa too.
As a European, I'm firmly against non-European countries joining the EU because they are just that: non-European. It's the European Union after all.
Now what I would support is a ' special relationship ' between Canada and the EU, based on our common values and political views.

By the way, the EU is IMO a highly fragmented club of countries. Ontario might, for instance, be better off forging stronger ties with Britain while Quebec might be better off forging ties with France. Kind of like how South American nations are oriented towards Spain and how Brazil is oriented towards Portugal.

BTW 2: Zeister, did you happened to live in Zeist whilst in The Netherlands? If so, we were practically neighbours (hadn't it been that I only moved close to Zeist in 2007) I lived in Utrecht for a year and a half until this month.
 
kEiThZ said:
We'd sooner have a chance at North American Union than the EU.....

The Europeans like to keep their club exclusive....as in excluding anyone outside Europe and who is not Christian......just look at their treatment of Turkey.....
Click to expand...

Ummmm, I think that has more to do with Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide.

I should think the fact that Turkey - to this day - denies their roll in the deaths of more than a million Armenians than the fact that they aren't Christian.
The EU is very secular.
 
Ronald said:
Canada joining the EU? Come on.
We might aswell invite New Zealand and South Africa too.
As a European, I'm firmly against non-European countries joining the EU because they are just that: non-European. It's the European Union after all.
Now what I would support is a ' special relationship ' between Canada and the EU, based on our common values and political views.
Click to expand...

I certainly agree with you. However, I see the EU as something of a precursor to a global government. Eventually nationalism is likely to weaken, and as that happens, supranational governments will increase in scope and size. Of Canada's options, I think the EU would be the best bet (joining the Americas would be signing up for a whole can of political worms given the US's history of interference in just about every country in Latin America not to mention surrendering to the will of the superpower).
 
urbanboom said:
Ummmm, I think that has more to do with Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide.

I should think the fact that Turkey - to this day - denies their roll in the deaths of more than a million Armenians than the fact that they aren't Christian.
The EU is very secular.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Many EU members have a nice long list of nasty historical happenings which rarely get acknowledged. Membership is not about the past, it's about the present.

Many Europeans who reject the idea of Turkey as a member of the EU do so because of Islam, or because they reject the idea that Turkey is actually part of Europe.
 
On the matter of the California economy, although it is true the economy of California is similar in size (although 25% bigger) to Canada's, the key point to note is that this amount of wealth is generated in such a small area. Canada is fantastically larger than California; the cost of doing business here is substantially higher. The climate alone, let alone the sheer distances, adds to the costs here in Canada. Barring a major earthquake (that doesn't involve Vancouver), California is truly blessed on so many levels.
Examination of this one matter alone highlights the dangers of any close ties with the Americans. Although our histories and cultures are intertwined, they simply overwhelm us on so many levels. This feeds into the cultural/economic inferiority that we Canadians have felt for generations. I don't think there is a parallel on earth like this: two neighbors that get along as well as we do where one is fantastically more powerful than the other. In any other pairing such as this that I can think of, one nation (or culture) has inevitably absorbed the other. Look at the balanced state of tension between Russia and China as to the opposite of what we in North America share.
Although I'd like to avoid a Orwellian 1984 polarization of the world, it seems natural that Canada, the U.S. and Mexico would link up. Any reservations I have against such a union are purely selfish: with a quarter of the world's fresh water, the biggest deposits of uranium, potash, nickel, copper and, possibly, oil, we have a quite a few aces to deal. The Americans have the money, commerce and technology, but we have the resources to fuel them, literally.
 
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