New Transit Funding Sources

[Solid Snake]

Both of which showed the incumbent being tossed, and were wrong. It's the age-old anti-incumbent bias in polling.

Surely that benefits the Liberals in Ontario though.

Didn't you say similar about Ornge, e-Health, and the Green Tax though? LOL!

...

Whatever makes you happy

 

[nfitz]

My interpretation is that they feel that the government should.look at efficiencies or/and revise theit priorities of what should be funded first in the provincial budget.

So you feel that people in rural Ontario think that transit expansion in Toronto should be simply paid for out of general province-wide revenue?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

My interpretation is that they feel that the government should.look at efficiencies or/and revise theit priorities of what should be funded first in the provincial budget.

Sure, considering you are looking at a 10B deficit, whatever changes in priorities will not create a pot of money to fund transit without adding to the deficit/debt.

AoD

 

[Solid Snake]

Sure, considering you are looking at a 10B deficit, whatever changes in priorities will not create a pot of money to fund transit without adding to the deficit/debt.

AoD

I don't disagree with the facts, just stating the obvious.

People won't vote for higher taxes.

They will believe the next guy who will promise cuts and efficiencies to kill the deficit and fund transit.

Just like the feds and the city did, they will go after public servants even harder than their counterparts and try to squeeze every penny they can.

The major question is... Do you believe they can do it? Do believe they will? Do you believe they will succeed?

Personally, I think the PC will try but they will come up short and disappoint.

The next question is...can we trust the Liberals at all with our money after the lies, the scandals and the wasting.

Then, the ultimate question is, who do you trust more?

See, it's complex. The tax plan to find transit is ok since it's being done in most of the western world.

What makes people hesitate is who's the messenger. Beyond ideology, they have a poor track record so far and people just don't trust them even if they agree that transit expansion is a must.

Yes, its her job to sell the plan to the population but she needs to do it in an election.

Imposing such a measure when you haven't been elected as Premier will definitely get more resistance than if you had won an election.

If she wins a majority with that plan, then she would be justified to implement it. Until then, people will continue to be hostile to it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, its her job to sell the plan to the population but she needs to do it in an election.

Imposing such a measure when you haven't been elected as Premier will definitely get more resistance than if you had won an election.

If she wins a majority with that plan, then she would be justified to implement it. Until then, people will continue to be hostile to it.

Nope - that's the perogative of the premier and the legislature, which are elected to deal with these issues. We don't have an election to go to war, or set the budget - much less raising a percentage point or two in taxes. And people who are against the tax will be hostile regardless of whether she has a majority or not - it has no bearing on the tax, must less justification for it.

Besides, eventually we will have an election - if the parties won power are against it, it will be their perogative to remove the tax then.

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

Besides Eglinton Crosstown, nothing will start by the next election to appease angry taxpayers.

Scarborough will be (rightfully) outrage at the chaos the shutdown of the SRT will put them through.

Sheppard and Finch won't star any construction before then. I'd be surprised if any LRT projects in the regions would start by then.

Spadina extension will open late 2015. Sooner would have helped them.

People will be paying taxes and they will start to see results only beyond the next election. Liberals are asking us to "trust them"... Again...

I'm skeptical about Ontarians (not only the GTA) patience, confidence and tolerance towards the liberals

I completely agree.
People don't want to start paying more taxes and not see the immediate benefits. Yes people know infrastructure takes time to build but if the taxes start being charged then they want to see shovels in the ground and not endless environmental reviews and consultations. They don't trust Queen's Park or Metrolinx to bring in projects on time and on budget and who can blame them? If you buy a car and start making payments you don't want to wait 10 years to take to actually get to drive the damn thing.

This is why I think free GO trips with the respective cities they serve {a basic transit ticket in your city also applies to GO service in your city} make perfect sense and is an idea that can easily be sold to the public. Yes your taxes go up but now you can take the GO train you couldn't afford before. The new taxes could be levied the exact same day the new service begins so people see immediate benefits of their taxes and not some vague "trust us it will get built at some point" promise from the politicians and bureaucrats at Queen's Park or Metrolinx. Also once people get this immediate service it would be very hard for any future government to take it away unlike cancelling a transit or road project that no one thinks will be built regardless.

You don't charge people tolls before infrastructure is built and you cannot expect people to pay taxes before the service is provided.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Oh but there are benefits coming.. Both the York region BRTs and the Mississauga transit way will be online by the next election, along with the ARL. 30 minute GO on the lakeshore lines is starting within the month, and the Georgetown upgrades should be finishing up meaning increased service on the Kitchener line. The RT will be shut down right as the election starts (presuming Wynne fails to pass the 2015 budget, but passes the 2014 one) meaning there won't be any animosity there. Even by 2015 toronto is starting to see the improvements in transit service. (Heck the first phase of the big move starts coming online in October)

 

[TOareaFan]

Oh but there are benefits coming.. Both the York region BRTs and the Mississauga transit way will be online by the next election, along with the ARL. 30 minute GO on the lakeshore lines is starting within the month, and the Georgetown upgrades should be finishing up meaning increased service on the Kitchener line. The RT will be shut down right as the election starts (presuming Wynne fails to pass the 2015 budget, but passes the 2014 one) meaning there won't be any animosity there. Even by 2015 toronto is starting to see the improvements in transit service. (Heck the first phase of the big move starts coming online in October)

There will, of course, be arguments that those projects were all financed out of general revenues, in the old fashioned way without the need for the new tax increases/revenue tools.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

There will, of course, be arguments that those projects were all financed out of general revenues, in the old fashioned way without the need for the new tax increases/revenue tools.

The GO service doesn't even cost extra.


For now...

 

[TOareaFan]

The GO service doesn't even cost extra.


For now...

Sorry, was in a rush and did not delete the parts of your quote I was not responding too.....the capital projects that you noted coming on line soon...the opposition to the new revenue tools will point out that these were achieved without them.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

TOareafan:

They should note that these capital expenditures added to the debt through the financing arrangements. No such thing as "free money".

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

but they also add to the provinces debt load which is what so many conservatives are whining about. Put simply the Province can't afford another $34 billion in infrastructure programs on top of the multi billion dollar deficit while trying to eliminate it by 2018 (See: can't find 2 billion in extra revenue as they are already trying to find 10 billion to cut the deficit)

 

[TOareaFan]

but they also add to the provinces debt load which is what so many conservatives are whining about. Put simply the Province can't afford another $34 billion in infrastructure programs on top of the multi billion dollar deficit while trying to eliminate it by 2018 (See: can't find 2 billion in extra revenue as they are already trying to find 10 billion to cut the deficit)

What the opposition (particularly the Tories) will say on this file is pretty easy to predict. They will point to the projects commenced and note that they were achieved without the new taxes...they will point that they were achieved while reducing the deficit and being on track for the balancing of the budget in 2018 and while "wasting tax payers money on things like Orange, ehealth and gas plants"....the money for the big move (they will say) can be found within the current budgets by finding those "efficiencies" that will free up 1.5% (which is what $2B a year is) of the total Ontario budget.

I am not saying this is accurate/achievable but responding to the notion that simply pointing to those projects that will come on stream around the time the new taxes do and say "see you are getting benefits as well as costs" is a double edged sword.

 

[BurlOak]

From what I've read so far, it doesn't seem to be the case.

Jim Flaherty:

" as you're well aware, the comprehensive integrated tax coordination agreement signed by the Government of Ontario does not allow for the provincial component of the HST to vary between regions within the province. Any proposal to raise the rate of the provincial component of the HST within municipal or regional boundaries would contravene that agreement"

No HST tax hike.

If Wynne does not like this agreement, she can always blame Mike Harris for signing such an awful deal.

 

[TOareaFan]

If Wynne does not like this agreement, she can always blame Mike Harris for signing such an awful deal.

Since Harris was gone 7 years before the harmonization was announced and 8 years before it was implemented....she might as well blame Leslie Frost