Need some opinions on reno - resale repercussions

[ILuvTO]

Thinking of renovating my kitchen. Right now half is dedicated to the cabinets/appliances, and the other half has enough space for a small table for four. The kitchen is a rectangle-ish shape. I'm thinking of putting cabinets around three of the walls with an island in the middle. The island will have an overhang for a couple of people to sit.

Will the lack of kitchen table (or even space for one), turn off potential buyers when I eventually sell? Some in my family are arguing it will, and that I will be alienating potential families from buying. As a side note, the dining room connects directly to the kitchen, so there is space for a table there.

Here is a visual of what I have now:

http://kitchenplanner.ikea.com/CA/U...150a462e58&UIContext=Kitchen&IsSharedDesign=1

Here is a visual of what I want (I like this much better )

http://kitchenplanner.ikea.com/US/U...75404cf087&UIContext=Kitchen&IsSharedDesign=1

 

[Eug]

Pictures won't display unless I install new software. No thanks.

Anyways, depends on the family. When I looked for houses, I didn't want dining table-specific empty space in the kitchen, and I didn't want a completely separate and dedicated dining room either. I wanted open concept with a dining/living area, and a reasonably big kitchen either continuous with it or adjacent to it. In my experience, most formal dining rooms go relatively unused. In-kitchen dining areas may be used, but I prefer not to have that if I have a bar with seating for at least 4 (like at a kitchen island or at the edge of the kitchen), or if there is a somewhat dedicated dining area next to and open to the kitchen.

 

[ILuvTO]

Pictures won't display unless I install new software. No thanks.

Anyways, depends on the family. When I looked for houses, I didn't want dining table-specific empty space in the kitchen, and I didn't want a completely separate and dedicated dining room either. I wanted open concept with a dining/living area, and a reasonably big kitchen either continuous with it or adjacent to it. In my experience, most formal dining rooms go relatively unused. In-kitchen dining areas may be used, but I prefer not to have that if I have a bar with seating for at least 4 (like at a kitchen island or at the edge of the kitchen), or if there is a somewhat dedicated dining area next to and open to the kitchen.

Thanks, Eug. If I go ahead with this reno I was definitely aiming for an island with stools for 4. My dining room is literally steps from the kitchen entrance so I have that covered.

 

[interested]

I am not a realtor but generally what I have been told is that you want to keep the place as marketable as possible for the most number of people. For a number of families, if I understand your premise correctly, you would lose your kitchen table eat area. I would tend to agree with your family this is less than ideal.

I can tell you I recall a home similar to ours (a large suburban home) in which they put a breakfast bar in the kitchen. It sat "forever" on the market and the agent told me families want the ability to eat in a kitchen (unless it is a really small place) and even though this had an island with 4 seats, it did not cut it.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Eug]

I am not a realtor but generally what I have been told is that you want to keep the place as marketable as possible for the most number of people. For a number of families, if I understand your premise correctly, you would lose your kitchen table eat area. I would tend to agree with your family this is less than ideal.

I can tell you I recall a home similar to ours (a large suburban home) in which they put a breakfast bar in the kitchen. It sat "forever" on the market and the agent told me families want the ability to eat in a kitchen (unless it is a really small place) and even though this had an island with 4 seats, it did not cut it.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck with your decision.

It really depends on how its designed. My sister does not have an eat-in kitchen, but her dining area is immediately adjacent to the kitchen, and opens directly to it so it essentially functions like both a formal dining "room" and an eat-in kitchen. However, this way she doesn't waste the extra space on a superfluous eat-in kitchen.

I found this on the internet just as some random example of what I'm talking about:

Here is another example, but in this second example there is a bar area at the right with the potential for stool seating, for breakfasts and such.

You don't need a dedicated formal dining room with separate in-kitchen eating area. However, it also depends on the house type and the location. If you're in an area with very traditional design, then having no completely separate formal dining room (and an in-kitchen casual eating area) might be a problem. But for a modern design, this is becoming less and less necessary, and in some ways undesirable because it's a waste of space - duplication of function.

BTW, my sister's condo is 1800 square feet so as far as condos go, she had potentionally enough space for an in-kitchen eating area, but her setup is much more functional IMO. She has a bigger living room because of it.

 

[interested]

It really depends on how its designed. My sister does not have an eat-in kitchen, but her dining area is immediately adjacent to the kitchen, and opens directly to it so it essentially functions like both a formal dining "room" and an eat-in kitchen. However, this way she doesn't waste the extra space on a superfluous eat-in kitchen.

This makes a lot of sense in your sisters case and we agree. I just wanted to point out an experience I recalled. Now condo in the city is different than family suburban house.

However, whether one wishes a formal dining room or not I agree it is very rarely used in my experience. However, people coalesce around the kitchen and the kitchen table in my view is really regarded by most families as a necessity.


Again my view is if one is looking at marketability, a kitchen table is virtually never a negative but it's absence is potentially, so I personally would be very cautious about doing things which limit my resale market. We all know the kitchen is the most important room for most people so potentially this is a deal maker/breaker for future sales.

 

[Eug]

Again my view is if one is looking at marketability, a kitchen table is virtually never a negative but it's absence is potentially, so I personally would be very cautious about doing things which limit my resale market. We all know the kitchen is the most important room for most people so potentially this is a deal maker/breaker for future sales.

I live in Scarborough, in the Bluffs.

When I was looking for a place, space on the main floor dedicated to a true in-kitchen table was a mild negative for me. A dedicated separated dining room was also a big negative for me. One of the problems is that in-kitchen dining areas often means a more traditional, not modern, design, and space wasted. I, and esp. a lot of downtowner ex-pats, really would rather the space utilized better, for example as a bigger kitchen. In places like Toronto, modern kitchens are quite popular if done tastefully and functionally, and I think tastes have changed dramatically since even 15 years ago. So, basically, anywhere where you're likely to have buyers under the age of 45 and somewhat modern tastes (like most places in Toronto), then you are likely good to go. Now, if you're stuck in old-codger territory, then perhaps not so much.

BTW, I was at Ikea today looking for some furniture, and had a quick look through some of their kitchen displays. I noticed one very popular theme there wasn't in-kitchen eating areas, but again, near-kitchen dining tables, such as this:

To put it another way, I consider a good design for a kitchen and dining area is to have a single dining area, with that dining area almost as an extension of a large and open kitchen. Indeed, the last major reno I saw from a neighbour was a small traditional bungalow... until I walked inside. They ripped apart the entire front area, and made an open concept kitchen with an adjacent giant room. One corner of that room next to the kitchen serves as the dining area, and the rest of the room serves as a living room. Very nice. The only problem is that one of the walls was a load-bearing wall and it would have cost a small fortune to re-architect the design to remove all the load-bearing pillars. So, they have a single pillar in the middle of that giant room going from the basement to the roof which isn't ideal, but that did save them a ton of cost for the re-design and it still looks great.

For the record, my current setup isn't actually like this. My setup is kitchen (at front of house) with an open breakfast bar separating the kitchen from the giant room. The dining area is in that giant room at the other end of the room (facing the backyard).

Kitchen at the right, dining area at the left:

The reason we put the dining area away from the kitchen is because it overlooks the backyard, so we can see the outside landscaped view. We have our breakfasts and quick meals at the breakfast bar. Ideally that pillar beside the breakfast bar wouldn't be there if I had my choice, but that's where the heating ducts and support pillar run so we had to leave it there.

The bonus here though is that if we wanted to change things up we could do that very easily. We could put the dining area right next to the breakfast bar, and shift the focus of the living room closer to the backyard windows. A more extensive change would be for us to remove the breakfast bar completely so we could walk straight out of the kitchen right to an adjacent dining table, but we didn't do that because of the extra cost and the loss of cupboard space.

BTW, as you can see, our choice of furniture here isn't actually modern. It's more country-ish, yet the modern no-in-kitchen-table and no-separate-dining-room design choice still applies.

--

What I am really saying here is you still do need a dining area that can be used as a dedicated and nicely decorated area for entertaining, but that can functionally be an extension off the kitchen. And if it's an extension off the kitchen then the in-kitchen eating space becomes irrelevant.

 

[interested]

Eug,
Again you and I can agree on most of what you say. Interestingly, I have been told that a lot of families now are starting to close down the "open concepts" on the main floor to gain some privacy in some rooms.
I believe open concept combined dining room/kitchen makes a lot of sense as you show in the photo above especially if space is limited. If the home is larger, a more traditional dining room is expected (though quite useless in my experiance) and I believe aa sit down kitchen is sought by most families or at least the open concept kitchen/dining area.

I really think the final choice of seperate vs. combined kitchen/dining room is individual and if the home is smaller, the combination is a good compromise(if not the better solution). However, if the home is larger, I still believe most would expect either an eat in kitchen or a combination kitchen/dining room as a minimum; if not the seperate eat in kitchen and dining room if in fact available.

This has been a relatively recent change and just as I pointed out that a number of people having lived in "open areas main level" have opted to wall off a den or to try and get some quiet on the main level after a number of years, I am not sure the combination rooms will still be fashionable in 10 years. But I acknowledge, I may well be wrong.

Any decorators /designers on the forum who have some thoughts?

 

[ILuvTO]

I am not a realtor but generally what I have been told is that you want to keep the place as marketable as possible for the most number of people. For a number of families, if I understand your premise correctly, you would lose your kitchen table eat area. I would tend to agree with your family this is less than ideal.

I can tell you I recall a home similar to ours (a large suburban home) in which they put a breakfast bar in the kitchen. It sat "forever" on the market and the agent told me families want the ability to eat in a kitchen (unless it is a really small place) and even though this had an island with 4 seats, it did not cut it.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck with your decision.

Thank you for your thoughts, Interested. Greatly appreciated. I definitely see that point of view. I'll be putting the island on top the hardwood flooring, so if reasle is ultimately hampered by it, I can remove it and replace with a table if need be. For my use and purpose, I would rather have the island. I tend to agree with Eug that having two tables so close together (kitchen and dining) does not make sense in such a small space, though I can see why some people would want it.

Indeed, the last major reno I saw from a neighbour was a small traditional bungalow... until walked inside. They ripped apart the entire front area, and made an open concept kitchen with an adjacent giant room. One corner of that room next to the kitchen serves as the dining area, and the rest of the room serves as a living room. Very nice. The only problem is that one of the walls was a load-bearing wall and it would have cost a small fortune to re-architect the design to remove all the load-bearing pillars. So, they have a single pillar in the middle of that giant room going from the basement to the roof which isn't ideal, but did save them a ton of cost for the re-design.

This sounds exactly like my place (in Scarborough as well). The wall dividing my kitchen and living/dining rooms is also a load bearing wall. I briefly toyed with the idea of tearing it down to make it open concept but ultimately I did not want to play with the stability of the structure. Overall the house is not that big, hence another reason why I don't want to use up space with redundant tables.

 

[Eug]

However, if the home is larger, I still believe most would expect either an eat in kitchen or a combination kitchen/dining room as a minimum; if not the seperate eat in kitchen and dining room if in fact available.

Interestingly, my mom demanded a dining room when she moved. The place she got has one. She put an 8-seat table in there. It gets used once a year.

Otherwise when we visit we just all eat in the kitchen with her because it's too much of hassle to use the formal dining room as it's on the other side of house through a carpeted hallway.

This has been a relatively recent change and just as I pointed out that a number of people having lived in "open areas main level" have opted to wall off a den or to try and get some quiet on the main level after a number of years, I am not sure the combination rooms will still be fashionable in 10 years.

I guess it depends on what you mean by open concept. I see no real point in having a "private" dining room, kitchen, or living room. One set of neighbours back in the 70s or 80s went super open concept and basically ripped off the roof of their house, tore down all the interior walls, and then put a single vertical metal bracing structure right in the middle, and hung the second floor off that metal brace and adjacent exterior walls, but so that one could look down from the bedroom and home office upstairs right into the kitchen and living room. To me that's far too open concept for my tastes. A home office is preferably private, and bedroom most definitely should be private if there is enough space to make it private.

P.S. His house just got struck by lightning. It hit the metal structure at the top, and tore up the patio at the bottom, and also fried his TV and his telephone system. I guess his architecture essentially made that central structure a giant lightning rod.