Mississauga Dundas Transportation Master Plan

[BurlOak]

An alternate would be to only build a partial wye from the west, which would basically require a station at Honeydale/Cloverdale. The subway would depress in grade into an underground station, and just east of the station there would be a partial wye that would dip under the Milton line, and surface on the south side to access the yard. Not ideal for train movements, but unless there's an option I've missed that may be the only reasonable way to do it.

A partial wye should be adequate. Trains would presumably be sent to the yard immediately after dropping passengers off at the Honeydale terminal station.

I still see Honeydale being an at-grade station, just east of East Mall. For the wye, trains would descend just east of Shorncliffe - there is about 250m to descend, before curving under the CP corridor. The grade and curve can be somewhat tighter than standard, since it is not for revenue service.

 

[doady]

Would building a BRT corridor with LRT tracks in it east of Hurontario not be a better solution then than spending billions on a subway extension? That way you'd have interoperability with the Hurontario LRT.

I really don't get this "well it's too high for BRT, so let's jump waaaaaay up the capacity scale and build a subway instead". There are intermediate options that will work too.

Umm, I never said LRT wouldn't be good for Dundas.

As for interlining Dundas with Hurontario LRT, which is already planned to operate with two interlined routes from Day 1, yeah good luck with that.

 

[doady]

Is it better to build BRT along Main instead of LRT? Ridership of Main warrants BRT, ridership of Dundas warrants LRT.

But sometimes a relatively short but more expensive extension of an existing line is much better, especially when it would connect to a major node or Urban Growth Centre (e.g. Downtown Brampton to MCC, and Cooksville which is part of the Mississauga City Centre UGC to Etobicoke Centre).

 

[salsa]

Subway along Dundas to Hurontario is the best choice. LRT is not warranted west of Hurontario, and it can't serve UTM anyways. So might as well build a subway instead of a short LRT.

It's not clear to me why an LRT can't serve UTM, but that "short LRT" to Hurontario you speak of would be almost 10 km long, just slightly shorter than Finch West. Which by the way, the Finch bus has higher riderhip than Dundas, should it be a subway too?

 

[doady]

I already explained why Finch and other TTC routes have higher ridership than Dundas.

The point of building higher order transit is to increase ridership and transit in Mississauga has 1/3 the mode share that transit in Toronto does.

Dundas is a different fare zone. Dundas riders pay second fare to use the subway. Finch riders do not.

Dundas can be developed more. So with development, fare integration, increased mode share, the ridership potential on Dundas is much higher than Finch.

And unlike Finch, Dundas already has a subway. I am merely calling for an extension of a subway along a corridor that already has subway. Finch does not have a subway. Finch subway would be an entirely new line and so not in any way comparable to Dundas.

Dundas LRT from East Mall to Hurontario would be less than 8km long. Finch LRT in its ultimate form would be much, much longer than 8km. I'm not sure why you try to compare Dundas East LRT to the truncated Finch West LRT, as if I don't know that it will eventually be much longer. That is just misleading and I don't appreciate that.

Dundas LRT can't serve UTM because UTM isn't located in the Dundas Corridor. Not sure what is so hard to understand about this. Plus, the buses have enough enough trouble with Mississauga Rd and the UTM entrance, I can't imagine what an LRV train turning there would be like. Light rail transit along Mississauga Road? Yeah, good luck with that.

Dundas West has little development potential. It's all the backyards of houses. There's also the Lake Iroquois shoreline on the south side as well. Plus the ridership is much lower. With UTM not being in the corridor, Dundas West better served by BRT and it will never need anything more than BRT. Hurontario and Dundas is the logical place to split the route.

Let's connect the TTC subway system to the Hurontario LRT. Give the Hurontario LRT a subway connection just like Finch LRT.

 

[drum118]

Sorry, but no subway until 2075 or later, if at all. That is why I call for a Tram-Train off the Milton Line to Sq One interlining with Hurontario LRT.

Dundas sees 21,000 riders today and if you double or triple by 2035, meets BRT & LRT load standards and not even close to subway standards. LRT goes in on day one east of Hurontario and could be interline with Hurontario, but need the ridership first.

Taking the LRT west to UoM is a waste of money, since the ridership not there even by 2035 to justify it. Even an BRT will be hard press west of Hurontario even to Burlington as plan by Metrolinx. Most of all, the grade is too steep to have the LRT connect to Mississauga Rd. Any LRT going west of Mississauga Rd has to be elevated at this location.

Will deal with this next week when I have more time for more detail on this line.

Dundas has greater density development than Hurontario in the long run.

 

[gweed123]

Umm, I never said LRT wouldn't be good for Dundas.

You said "LRT is not warranted west of Hurontario, and it can't serve UTM anyways. So might as well build a subway instead of a short LRT." You seem to be discounting LRT as a mode choice for Dundas based on the fact that it isn't warranted west of Hurontario, so therefore the entire corridor shouldn't be LRT. That tech choice is seemingly based on the assumption that two tech types can't operate along the same section of the corridor, that it must be BRT or LRT or subway. I'm saying that's not the case, and that it should be BRT west of Hurontario, and express BRT and LRT east of Hurontario.

As for interlining Dundas with Hurontario LRT, which is already planned to operate with two interlined routes from Day 1, yeah good luck with that.

The two interlined routes, as far as I know, are one route running directly down Hurontario, and another detouring off Hurontario via the Square One loop. What I'm proposing is keeping the straight thru line as-is, but linking the Square One loop route with the Dundas LRT corridor, which would double as a BRT corridor. The two LRT routes and one BRT route would then be:

• LRT: Gateway to Port Credit via Hurontario
• LRT: Square One to Kipling via Square One Loop, Hurontario, and Dundas
• BRT: UTM or Halton Region to Kipling via Dundas, express east of Hurontario

This doesn't increase the number of routes interlining on Hurontario, it just changes where they're operating to. It also provides adequate capacity for the Dundas corridor east of Hurontario, and speeds up trips coming from west of Hurontario bound for Kipling. Everybody wins, and for marginally more (adding LRT tracks to a BRT corridor) than what the current plan is.

 

[drum118]

So far than the first meeting, Staff is out numbering the public 2-3: 1. A lot has to do with the time of the day the meetings are being held, location, but lack of notification. I wasn't aware of these events until an email was cc to me advising of these meetings. I have been to 3 and one was a bitch to get to as well the time.

The consultant from Aecon needs to get his fact right as they are wrong on many fronts as well from the city staff.

The Richmond #3 Road for the Canada Line is not an LRT to the point 2 of Ottawa LRV will be longer than the current 4 cars. Dundas as a whole carries only 20,000 a week day with the bulk of the ridership being between Hurontario and Dixie with 23% going to the subway. Ridership falls west of Hurontario and completely fall off west of Mississauga Rd. Dundas does not carry 1,000 less riders than Hurontario as claim, but 10,000 less to the point a city staff who worked on the LRT EA backup my numbers when I said they were wrong.

Mississauga is only getting 11% of new resident for Peel by 2035 is a joke and that was pointed out on day one by the land owner on Dundas.

Dundas is to be a local service road to server the various areas along it as well getting people to north-south route for work, not the long hullers going to the subway. That is to be done by RER. Having stops 1-2 km apart is off the table considering Hurontario LRT will be 500 meters in the first place. Some stops will be less with a few being more due to the road system.

The standard request for subway surface and I shot that down with the 2075 time frame. "I move to Mississauga to get away from Toronto and don't want mid rise or tall building on Dundas like Toronto" was used by a few. A lot of folks as well councilors wants Mississauga to remain low density as well a bedroom community.

I call for as well by others that the Queensway needs to be built over the Credit River and connect to Erin Mills and Winston Churchill. I understand Councilor Mahoney as well his parents who are x councilors choke on this comment last week at a meet, as it will up set the NIMBY folks on Mississauga Rd. Having this road built that should had happen in the 70s will change the traffic pattern on Dundas and deal with the issues on the QEW when it get shut down like it has been the past few days.

How about having a monorail going into these tall building at the 10th floor level was another comment.

Did state Dundas will be a rollerscoast for height with some new areas remaining as is for the next 50 or so years to high density at major intersection with a mixture in between those intersection.

Dundas needs to be a place to live, work, shop and play with light industries east of Dixie.

As I stated to the Metrolinx represented, LRT east of Hurontario from day one with lite BRT in mix traffic west of Hurontario to Burlington as per their Regional plan for Dundas for the next couple of decades as there is nothing there now or then to support a full BRT ROW.

Have seen a few development been plan for Dundas and needs to go back to the drawing board as they fail on all accounts offering low density and fly in the face of a number visionary plans already been proposed for Dundas. The Cooksville Vision is one of the that going to council in late May where a developer call for 1-2 story townhouses in place of a plan 18 story apartment building.

I can see this study being a mess compare how Hurontario was done considering Dundas as more opportunity to be a greater transit corridor as well having more density than Hurontario. Metrolinx has already shown their hand by not wanting to invest money that will undo the Mississauga Transitway, Milton and Lakeshore RER for Dundas.

 

[drum118]

From an email

Summer Engagement Opportunities

This summer, many fun and exciting events are coming to Dundas Street. Check us out as we move around the city to spread the word about Dundas Connects and collect your feedback.

Opportunities to Participate

Share a Story

Have a vision for the future or a memory of the past? Share your tale with The Tale of a Town team as the storymobile travels along Dundas Street. The Tale of a Town is an innovative story-telling project that captures the collective community memory of Canada's main streets, one story at a time. Working alongside the City's Culture Division and the Dundas Connects team, local artists will mine stories from the community about Dundas Street until July 31st. Storymobile stops include Mississauga Celebration Square, Cooksville, and Burnhamthorpe Community Centre.

For times and locations, click here

Design Dundas

Get creative with our interactive Design Dundas tool! Show us your perfect street by choosing the transit, land-use and public space components that best fit your needs. You can add trees, parkettes, street lighting, or bike paths, widen sidewalks or traffic lanes, pick your preferred transit mode, and even change the look and size of buildings - all within the same right-of-way as the Dundas Corridor (35m).

Click here to launch

Take a Quick Poll

Do you think improving Dundas' public space will help to create an environment people want to live, work and play? Let us know!

Take the latest poll

Questions or comments?

Share them with us here, or email Katie Ashbourne at Katie.ashbourne@mississauga.ca.

Thank you for being a part of Dundas Connects!

Best regards,

The Dundas Connects Team

 

[drum118]

Notice of Study Completion

 

[gibsonm]

So the study recommends a BRT rather than an LRT, even east of Hurontario. I really thought Mississauga was trying to take on a more urban identity and change the character of Dundas St. This will probably be lipstick on a pig, as cars and buses continue to be given priority. , the street won’t be substantially beautified, and buses will continue to stop at the intersections on Dundas. This is a plan for the past rather than the future.

 

[muller877]

So the study recommends a BRT rather than an LRT, even east of Hurontario. I really thought Mississauga was trying to take on a more urban identity and change the character of Dundas St. This will probably be lipstick on a pig, as cars and buses continue to be given priority. , the street won’t be substantially beautified, and buses will continue to stop at the intersections on Dundas. This is a plan for the past rather than the future.

Have you been to Downtown Markham lately? Even with their sporadic BRT system the urban fabric is coming along nicely. Not perfect but pretty darn good even compared to international standards of densifying suburbs.

Along Dundas we should see the same as Mississauga will set very stringent building requirements and the developers have the ability to meet them given the large parcels of land that are available.

 

[adrianaliu]

urban design along viva corridors is really good as are the actual viva stations and rapidways. problem is wide roads with 2 stage crossings and 80 kph speeds and deep setbacks. ruins any attempt at an urban feel. dundas is much more narrow and not flanked by open space so the same problem likely won't arise.

 

[drum118]

Dundas Street Right-of-Way Mississauga Official Plan Amendment

Join us on November 11, 2019 for a statutory public meeting to consider changes to the Official Plan for the Dundas Street right-of-way width. As a key recommendation of the Council approved Dundas Connects Master Plan (see pages 166 – 167), the proposed changes will widen the right-of-way to protect for dedicated bus lanes, four general vehicular lanes and enhanced pedestrian and cycling amenities.

Meeting Details:

When: Monday, November 11, 2019 at 6:00 p.m.

Where: Mississauga Civic Centre, Council Chambers, 300 City Centre Drive

If a person or public body does not make oral submissions at a public meeting or make written submissions to the City before the by-law is passed, the person or public body is not entitled to appeal the decision of City Council to the Local Planning Appeal Tribunal, or be added as a party to an appeal of the decision to the Tribunal. The decision of City Council is final if a notice of appeal is not received on or before the last day for filing a notice of appeal.

If you would like to share your views in advance of the meeting, please contact Christian Binette by email at christian.binette@mississauga.ca or by phone at 905-615-3200, ext. 5753.

Best regards,

The Dundas Connects Team

 

[doady]

Have you been to Downtown Markham lately? Even with their sporadic BRT system the urban fabric is coming along nicely. Not perfect but pretty darn good even compared to international standards of densifying suburbs.

Along Dundas we should see the same as Mississauga will set very stringent building requirements and the developers have the ability to meet them given the large parcels of land that are available.

Transit ridership in Mississauga is already much higher than in Markham. Dundas is already an articulated bus every 5-6 minutes. The ridership of 1/101 Dundas/Express is on par with the 19/103 Hurontario/Express or Yonge and VIVA Blue or 1/10 Main/B-Line Express, around 20,000 riders per weekday. Thinking about densifying is meaningless if there is no willingness to move beyond buses.