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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

I think the metropass should be kept. They can make a Presto type metropass and all you have to do is scan the card and the system will know that it is a monthly pass. For single rides and transfers and what not, the system has to somehow keep track where the user is starting the trip, where he/she is making the transfer, and where their trip ends. So I guess a time-based system, as some had mentioned before, may work. The user is allowed to tap on/off in a certain amount of time period...I don't know...just a thought...
 
Here's why the monthly cap option is superior to a monthly pass (and by monthly cap, I mean you pay per ride until you reach some point where you become free until the end of the month):

1) Transit is made more affordable if you can reload your card once a week instead of spending $110 in one sitting. Currently, those who cannot afford a monthly pass are forced to use tickets that have a higher per-ride price. A monthly cap gives you all of the discounts of a monthly pass but without forcing a large pre-payment.
2) Monthly passes cannot be pro-rated, while a monthly cap can. There's always a chance that you will not ride enough to justify the pass, but you will not get your money back. With a monthly cap you only pay for what you use - and if you use it a lot you'll reach the free point.
3) Monthly passes require you to guesstimate how many times you will ride in a month. If you don't buy it and you go over then you'll pay more. If you buy it and then don't ride then you'll pay more.

On flat fare systems with a timed transfer, all the computer needs to know is when the card was last tapped. If tap two occurs within 2 hours of the first tap, the trip is a transfer. Else, the trip is a full fare. One only needs to tap off if we're doing fare by distance, but that's a separate discussion.
 
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Here's why the monthly cap option is superior to a monthly pass (and by monthly cap, I mean you pay per ride until you reach some point where you become free until the end of the month):

1) Transit is made more affordable if you can reload your card once a week instead of spending $110 in one sitting. Currently, those who cannot afford a monthly pass are forced to use tickets that have a higher per-ride price. A monthly cap gives you all of the discounts of a monthly pass but without forcing a large pre-payment.
2) Monthly passes cannot be pro-rated, while a monthly cap can. There's always a chance that you will not ride enough to justify the pass, but you will not get your money back. With a monthly cap you only pay for what you use - and if you use it a lot you'll reach the free point.
3) Monthly passes require you to guesstimate how many times you will ride in a month. If you don't buy it and you go over then you'll pay more. If you buy it and then don't ride then you'll pay more.

On flat fare systems with a timed transfer, all the computer needs to know is when the card was last tapped. If tap two occurs within 2 hours of the first tap, the trip is a transfer. Else, the trip is a full fare. One only needs to tap off if we're doing fare by distance, but that's a separate discussion.

all you said makes a lot of sense and should be implemented.
However, I doubt it will ever happen, simply because the TTC following the same logic, has and will squeeze each cent out of its customer's pockets. A monthly cap is adopted in the London Underground, which works great. I loved the flexibility of not having to pay for a monthly pass when it turns out you didn't need to, or regretting not having bought a pass when the total trips made it cheaper. But will TTC like that idea? Absolutely not. I doubt the majority of passengers make more than 48 trips each month, but hey, wouldn't it be nice to make them pay for that many trips?

Among the public transit system I have taken, TTC offers the minimium customer flexibity.

For example, some cities offer a 24 hour day pass, which means if you buy one at 1pm today, you get to use it until 1 pm tomorrow. But TTC doesn't. If you realize you need to make multiple trips at 4pm, you can only use the pass until 12am (or whenever 5am for the bus I think).

Some cities (Vancouver) give a 2 hour transfer window, allowing you to board any bus in any direction during the 2 hours. But TTC doesn't. No return trip. No walking to the next stop. There was one time my friend was taking the 34 eglington and mistakenly got off at "Yonge/Eglington" station instead of "Eglington station" without knowing the latter's existence. Although with a transfer and the two stations are like 200 meters apart, he was denied access and asked to pay again.

Other cities offer discount price for non-rush hour (London/Paris etc), or a monthly/daily cap etc. TTC doesn't either. It is either $2.5 per trip, or $121 per month. Make your decision on the 1st of each month!

Yes, the TTC is the most stingy to its customers with its 1985 technology, 2 line subway system, completely unpredictable bus schedule and one of the world's most expensive fare system. I literally have not experienced anything worse.
 
A monthly cap is adopted in the London Underground, which works great.
When I was using Oyster in London a few years ago, it only had daily capping, not weekly or monthly. As a result, they've pretty much eliminated daily Travelcards, but they still sell longer periods. I don't see anything on their website about monthly capping currently.

GO Transit has monthly capping on the PrestoCard, and thus eliminates the whole concept of buying a monthly pass.

I loved the flexibility of not having to pay for a monthly pass when it turns out you didn't need to, or regretting not having bought a pass when the total trips made it cheaper.
So do I ... but I'm surprised London apparently introduced it, and now seem to have eliminated it. When were you there that they were doing monthly capping?
 
I think our only hope is for PRESTO to simply be unable to handle the TTC's current fare system. We often gripe about a technological hurdle, but I'd consider it a win in this case.
 
Current TTC fare system is pretty simple over than the Transfer rules. We've been given enough clues from TTC that the transfer rules will change with Presto implementation ... seems that some over there are using Presto as the excuse to change the transfer rules, rather than have huge internal battle to make them more rational. Other than that, I don't see why Presto would have any problems with current system. If it can handle GO's complex monthly capping, I don't see why it would have any problems with the current features of tickets, tokens, loading monthly passes, and day capping (which surely would be easier to implement than the current day pass).
 
I think our only hope is for PRESTO to simply be unable to handle the TTC's current fare system. We often gripe about a technological hurdle, but I'd consider it a win in this case.

Yes. just get rid of the stupid paper transfers! What I suggest

1) A distance based fare system. Come on, someone from Steeles/Warden is supposed to pay more than one for Yonge/Bloor to get to King Station. All arguments otherwise are not valid. Traveling between downtown stations (or the equivalent distance) should be something like $1 or $1.5, while much longer commuters should pay as much as $5 each way. (don't complain, they choose to live far from work, now pay for your choice. They pay less for housing, right?).

2) No transfers issued. unlimited change within a certain window of time (1.5 hours for example). Directions and points of transfer don't matter.

3) Implement both a daily or a monthly cap. Eliminate month and day pass.

4) get rid of the "day pass work for two adult + 4 children" thing. It is ridiculous. Nobody is supposed to subsidize those who choose to raise four kids. If you can't afford even their transit, here is an easy way: have fewer children!

5) Get rid of 80% of the subway ticket collectors. They are useless. Only have them at major stations. It is stupid to have a ticket collect at, say Rosedale, or Summerhill stations and pay them $60k a year plus benefits.

Of course these are just my dreams, which may only get implemented in normal cities (ie, the rest of the world).
 
^I always thought that 2 adults 4 kids pass was for an entirely different thing. Never thought, I guess, that there were enough 4 kid families to come up with a product for them....so I thought it was for average families (2 adults, 2 kids) taking their kids and one friend each on outings....shopping/museums/movies/whatever and making transit a competitive choice over everyone into the mini-van. But, of course, it could just be a product for people who do not consider the cost of transit when they are indiscriminantly reproducing.....I guess.
 
4) get rid of the "day pass work for two adult + 4 children" thing. It is ridiculous. Nobody is supposed to subsidize those who choose to raise four kids. If you can't afford even their transit, here is an easy way: have fewer children!
:eek::eek:

Good grief, it's only allowed to be used that way on weekends. Personally, I've only used it for either 2 adults, or 2 adults + 1. I really haven't seen it used much for any more than 2+2. Does it really get used for 2+4 or 1+5 enough to worry about?

I find TTC fare policies actually quite anti-child. At 24 months, you start paying child fares, and at age 13, you pay almost an adult fare. Most GTA agencies are free until you are 5 or 6. And many agencies have much cheaper fares for teenagers. Students in Montreal pay only a $44/month bus pass until to age 25!

Perhaps if they get rid of one of the few deals they have, like the 4+2 day pass, they should also change some other polices ... but that would probably cost more ... and would also cause families to discover that suddenly driving and parking is much cheaper on a weekend.
 
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:eek::eek:

Good grief, it's only allowed to be used that way on weekends. Personally, I've only used it for either 2 adults, or 2 adults + 1. I really haven't seen it used much for any more than 2+2. Does it really get used for 2+4 or 1+5 enough to worry about?

I agree it is less of a worry as well. A family with 4 kids under 18 will drive anyway, if they have a car. I would. It is really not worth saving that money. and TTC is exactly the most reliable transit when it comes to schedule.

What I mean was the fare system should be fair - not subsidizing certain groups at the expense of others. it is only fair to charge based on number of passengers and the distance they travel, isn't it? ideally, fare should be determined based on exactly the distance one travels. We know the distance between stations and it is actually very easy to implement. For example, a base fee accounting for fixed cost and additional free completely determined by distance to cover variable costs.

Here is the formula: Your fare = base fee + distance (in km) X $/km.
I can't see any reason this can't be adopted. Not complicated at all.
 
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With a fare by distance system we wouldn't even need a transfer system! Base plus distance. Then charge a premium if it's the subway for the speed and convenience and a higher premium for the go bus or train. Done!
 
With a fare by distance system we wouldn't even need a transfer system! Base plus distance. Then charge a premium if it's the subway for the speed and convenience and a higher premium for the go bus or train. Done!

If you charge a premium for the subway then you'll have to improve bus service above it. Not saying it's a bad idea, but I find that people are more price sensitive than we may think. If speed was the only consideration then Zum to York U wouldn't be as successful as it is in the face of GO 407 service.
 
I will be commuting to work in Toronto everyday via GO Train/TTC for the next few months, and I was just wondering if Presto card would be more beneficial than monthly passes. Also, I might take the GO Bus to go back to Waterloo on occasions as well.
The fare calculation on the GOTransit site is a bit confusing. Does anyone know which is better? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
 
Looking at GO's Presto pages...

Using Presto, GO charges you a regular fare minus 7.5% for the first 35 rides per month, a regular fare minus 87.5% for rides 36-40, and then further rides are free. This is if you only take trips between the same two locations.

If you take trips between more than two destinations, they take 7.5% off the first 35 trips, then they discount what you pay based on the value of the rides you've taken that month. There's no further information, so I can't be sure that monthly passes for your two main commuting destinations plus the occasional full-fare ticket to Waterloo would be a less expensive choice than using Presto for everything. If you're using local transit at either end, that might make a difference as well.

I hope that GRT in Kitchener-Waterloo also implements Presto, but I don't see that happening until they build their LRT and rebuild the Kitchener train station.
 

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