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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

From comments that Brad Ross made a few weeks ago, they aren't going to try and implement the transfer table (how could they - what do they do for diversions, which happen spontaneously daily). They'll simply use a time transfer, and block returning to the same route, or re-entering the subway. (though no indication how this will ever handle short-turns)
 
Napoleon said:
Companies spend big bucks paying Accenture consultants to implement exactly these sorts of things. As of right now with Presto only implemented on streetcars and the subway, it's probably not too hard to write down a list of transfers. Once buses end up in the mix, the list gets insane. I think part of the problem is that lots of trips require more than one transfer...I imagine that's when the logic gets insane.
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Yes, that's the whole problem and I bet that if the PRESTO folk actually worked out the costs of programing PRESTO to deal with all the regular transfer rules and the TTC codified their costs for dealing with over-rides etc if there are unexpected short-turns or diversions the cost of doing anything other than a simple 2-hour window would be excessive. Unfortunately, the TTC has dug in their heels because their transfer rules are part of their 'culture ' (see fascinating article on transfers on Steve Munro's site) and have come up with a cost of a change to timed transfers costing $20 million. They have not compared this to the savings from a simple easily-understood 2-hour period and the fact that this will need few, if any, exceptions and the fact that a 2-hour period is really offering much better customer service.
 
DSC said:
Unfortunately, the TTC has dug in their heels because their transfer rules are part of their 'culture ' (see fascinating article on transfers on Steve Munro's site) and have come up with a cost of a change to timed transfers costing $20 million.
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That number is completely unverifiable. It reeks of someone in the bureaucracy throwing out a highball figure that is calculated to make the decisionmakers feel they can't treat the changeover as 'small potatoes'.

In my payroll world, we did make a few kludges because the incorrect payment of small infrequent scenarios (three employees work overtime when Thanksgiving falls on a Tuesday kind of thing) was far cheaper to fix afterwards than asking the IT people to program the rules perfectly. I doubt TTC has that luxury. (Our auditors went ballistic, but that's another story). Suppose some rule fails to recognize a valid transfer for people going to a particular church on Christmas Day (when service is abnormally poor, and some normal transfer patterns may not be feasible, so people take an oddball route). TTC can't say "yeah, but we know that scenario is atypical, so we didn't bother programming it, and you got charged an extra fare - tough luck". The Star's Fixer would love to write that one up.

Perfection has its price.

- Paul
 
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It even works if you use the same station a second time within 2 hours! I made a few trips today that I wouldn't have made if I had to pay every time I got on the subway again.

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So, getting used to this whole Presto world has been trying for both me and the TTC drivers. I went up to King/Bay to catch the 501 to Gerrard to switch to the 506 (house hunting near Monarch Park Collegiate). Since I'm used to the monthly pass, when the Bay bus northbound came by first, I hustled across the street and grabbed it... and, of course, couldn't tap.

Luckily, the driver was an understanding sort and when I said I was catching the 506, he just said, well 'tap in' on the 506, and that'll be the same. So, cool. But, then, I grab the 506 and the Presto readers aren't working. Driver lets me on without tapping, as it's not my fault. So -- Bay/King to Norwood/Gerrard for free.

The rest of the day worked as per the '2 hour window' rule. Ended up spending $5.80, so the TTC did extract some blood, but I most definitely would have paid more under the old regime, either on a daily pass or a monthly divided by 30 basis.
 
crs1026 said:
That number is completely unverifiable. It reeks of someone in the bureaucracy throwing out a highball figure that is calculated to make the decisionmakers feel they can't treat the changeover as 'small potatoes'.

In my payroll world, we did make a few kludges because the incorrect payment of small infrequent scenarios (three employees work overtime when Thanksgiving falls on a Tuesday kind of thing) was far cheaper to fix afterwards than asking the IT people to program the rules perfectly. I doubt TTC has that luxury. (Our auditors went ballistic, but that's another story). Suppose some rule fails to recognize a valid transfer for people going to a particular church on Christmas Day (when service is abnormally poor, and some normal transfer patterns may not be feasible, so people take an oddball route). TTC can't say "yeah, but we know that scenario is atypical, so we didn't bother programming it, and you got charged an extra fare - tough luck". The Star's Fixer would love to write that one up.

Perfection has its price.

- Paul
Click to expand...

I said this in another thread, but with POP I fully intend to treat my Presto fare as a two hour transfer. If caught, I will fight it and argue that I paid the exact same fare as those along St. Clair did, and they get a two hour transfer despite being within the same fare zone. Sure it is a pilot project, but seeing as this project has been going on for over a decade now, I would hope they could counter my defence by providing enough research to crash a NASA supercomputer, and explain what new data they hope to gain by continuing said pilot. Otherwise a bit of legalese may convince a judge that the TTC is not conducting a proper pilot project, and that being within the same fare zone, St. Clair's transfer rules apply to all regular TTC routes in Toronto proper.

I also provided some rationale why they may lose a fair bit of money, though perhaps not as much as they estimate. TTC passes have an absurdly high break even point. While most cities have passes which break even after about 40 rides (5 return trips over 4 weeks), the TTC's don't break even until after 50 trips. And that is closer to 60 for students and seniors! Even in New York City, the break even point is about 47 rides per month. This doesn't even factor the ludicrous break even point of weekly passes, where the TTC likely spends more money printing them then they ever make back selling!

Part of the reason why the TTC can charge so much is because despite all the complaints against it, service is pretty damn good. Even in large cities, buses coming regularly under 5-10 minutes at all times of day is a rarity, let alone in the GTA. Since most transit trips in these places are about 40 trips, they charge that for a pass and hope to get people to consider transit for other non-work trips. The TTC, which has the mindset more comparable to Rogers than a public service, realizes the quality of the service they've built and chooses to capitalize on it rather than share it.

Long story short: If they moved to two hour transfers, sales of passes would go down because people would use them rather than pay an extra full fare for a short return trip or stopover. Of course this ignores the customer benefits of having more freedom without paying for a full pass, and the economic benefits of being able to spend money at businesses en route or reduced traffic congestion since people may choose to take transit for short local trips and trips with stopovers instead of driving.

Personally I'd rather see fares increased to be in line with passes, and include a two hour transfer. So with passes at $141.50, Presto/tokens would be $3.50 each and cash would be about $4.00.
 
Electrify said:
[ 2 hours transfers are good ]

Personally I'd rather see fares increased to be in line with passes, and include a two hour transfer. So with passes at $141.50, Presto/tokens would be $3.50 each and cash would be about $4.00.
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Agreed. Adjust pricing to remain revenue neutral and bring on 2 hour transfers.
 
Is Presto easy enough for seniors and the developmentally disabled to use? I ask because I have friends who work in Social Services and were concerned
 
Using it is simple, and you can't accidentally tap in twice so no worries about being double charged

Seniors do have to have it set up so it charges senior rates

Loading it would likely be the biggest issue, i.e., using the machines

ETA: You can reload by phone according to the TTC website
 
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Electrify said:
I said this in another thread, but with POP I fully intend to treat my Presto fare as a two hour transfer. If caught, I will fight it and argue that I paid the exact same fare as those along St. Clair did, and they get a two hour transfer despite being within the same fare zone.
Click to expand...
I don't think any complicated argument is needed. As long as you tap your card when you get on a vehicle you are complying with the TTC instructions for using Presto. In fact, it is impossible to pay the technically correct fare with a Presto card if boarding again within 2 hours. Let's just enjoy it while it lasts for now.
 
Juan_Lennon416 said:
Is Presto easy enough for seniors and the developmentally disabled to use? I ask because I have friends who work in Social Services and were concerned
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Buying the card and reloading it at a kiosk is as simple as buying anything with a credit card. The issue is that Kiosk locations are inconsistent and inconvenient. They aren't at all stops/stations, nor can they be reloaded in stores like with TTC fare media. And Presto does not warn customers when their balance is running low. So reloading does take a degree of planning, which some persons who are developmentally disabled might find challenging.

The online system was a pain in the ass for me to set up. It takes 24 hours to activate, and I recall having some issues getting it to work. I think I was typing in the wrong code on the card. But it was so long ago that I don't remember.

And only reloading is hellish. You have to reload 24 hours in advance, and you don't get any confirmation when funds that are loaded on the card are available to use. So every time you use the card you have to hope the funds are available. This will obviously be an issue for persons who are unable to plan 24 hours in advance, or who may not have the funds to add to the card 24 hours in advance

The online user interface is downright awful. Especially the trip summary pages. For example when making 1 trip, the summary page will actually list two charges. Seems to charge a base fare at the beginning of the trip, and then charge a second time or reimburse money depending on the distance traveled once you've completed the trip. I think. I'm not sure because the transaction history doesn't explain the reasoning for charges or credits. I gave up trying to understand it a while ago.

The Presto summary page uses this thing called "loyalty steps". I'm not quite sure what that is, and the page makes no attempt to explain it. This is probably something that could be answered with a Google search, but this is horrible user interface design nevertheless. That transaction history page should explain to users what loyalty steps are; the user shouldn't have to go hunting online for simple information that the Presto system should be telling them.

Also the stop names in the transaction history aren't correctly formatted.

The whole online system is so convoluted that I doubt they had people brought in to properly design the user interface. There was clearly no pride or care taken in its design. I expect that a lot of people, regardless of whether or not they are developmentally disabled, will struggle to understand it. It's probably the worst user interface I have to use on a regular basis.

So in terms of only accessibility I'd rate Presto very poorly. They need to make it easier/more convenient to reload cards at physical locations, and they need to make their online user interface easier to understand.

Edit: One more thing. Not only does presto NOT warn customers when their balance is low, and on many Presto readers the balance isn't shown at all. So to check the balance users will have to go out of their way to find a Presto kiosk, or use the convoluted online system that takes 24 hours to work.

Your friend is right to be concerned. I don't expect this to be an easy transition.
 
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Agreed, the user interface is awful. I have it set up with autoload so I haven't had the reloading hassles -- autoload works quite well, by the way. I only go to the website to check my transaction history, because I avoid it when I can. I haven't used the kiosks yet because I haven't had to.

I've spent a lot of years working in the social service field with people with learning and developmental disabilities. I'm wondering about agencies issuing prepaid cards? How is it done in other areas, like London with its Oyster card? Or what about closer to home -- how have municipalities and service agencies outside of Toronto been using Presto?
 
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