Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[steveintoronto]

make sure you tell them to transfer you to take the post-call survey. I remember they made a big deal a while back about how good their satisfaction numbers were. I had a brutal time with them - and asked them to make sure I got transferred through to the caller survey at the end of the call. They transferred me back to another rep. - and I had to go through the whole conversation again before they would transfer me to the automated survey. They need real metrics to show Sr. Staff how brutal their Customer Service is.

Yeah, I was just thinking about that, and indeed, I did select "2" for that, but when I thought of being on the phone waiting for 20 mins, I just hung-up, like I'm sure thousands are doing right now.

I'm sent a follow-on request to fill out the survey every time I communicate by email, which has bounced back and forth about four times now, one of the customer service reps completely agreed with my point, and agreeing with the "known glitch" recommended the 'no-tap-off, no-tap-on again' option, which is actually of real use to me running from the UPX to just catch the waiting LE train, precious time is wasted doing that, just got a bike through the door as it closed on me last week, it was that tight.

I can understand the glitch being consistent, but it isn't, just studying (as well as possible now the display is better in some ways, worse in others with no tap-off point displayed) my record, it seems it's only in one direction that the concession isn't applied, and that's when tapping onto the UPX GO Presto machine at the top of the UPX ramp at Union/Skywalk.

I just want them to fix the *&^%$#@ thing. I'm now so programmed to tap-on, tap-off like a good droogy that I forget to forgo that due to the glitch.

 

[nfitz]

The tap-off point is shown clearly. One line for tap-on. One line for tap-off.

What am I missing here? You can't show tap-off for the tap-on, as it doesn't know yet. And for the tap-off, you just look up to the previous tap.

 

[steveintoronto]

Display now coming up different again, now showing tap-off, but the math is still screwy, and now they've dinged me yet again for failing to tap-off, God only knows where and how:

Going through further records, items are appearing that didn't earlier today, and other entries, like this:

have disappeared in the latest records.

My card was checked on that train, (UPX Union bound) they've only ever missed checking it once that I can recall, going the other direction during rush-hour.

I've sussed that they're claiming I didn't tap off at Union Station...on the very machine that is known to be problematic, the GO Presto machine at the top of the ramp from Skywalk into the UPX platform area.


Grrrrrr......

 

[nfitz]

Display now coming up different again, now showing tap-off, but the math is still screwy, and now they've dinged me yet again for failing to tap-off, God only knows where and how:

Looks pretty clear. Penalty was October 7. Only 1 tap on October 6th, at Bloor. Be that the start or the end of the trip I don't know - but there's a tap missing that day.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We're about to switch the continent's third largest transit agency onto this payment system, and Metrolinx still can't get their software to reliably or accurately charge customers. If this were a private sector company collecting these funds, there's no way we'd consider this unreliability acceptable. Imagine if this were a credit card company.

One of these days there should be an audit one of these days to determine how many millions of dollars GTA commuters have been cheated out of thanks to Metrolinx's inability to implement this software.

And for the privilege of being forced to use this unreliable system, commuters are also forced to pay a greater proportion of their fare to Metrolinx's fare collection fees, rather than actual transit service improvements, on top of something like $400 Million in capital investment.

Never mind the millions in lost revenue operators are forced to eat thanks to readers not working.

 

[steveintoronto]

Looks pretty clear. Penalty was October 7. Only 1 tap on October 6th, at Bloor. Be that the start or the end of the trip I don't know - but there's a tap missing that day.

Except I was with a visitor to Canada that day, she bought a paper ticket, and asked me to show her how the Presto Card worked. We went down to Union to walk to the ferry to the Island. I was meticulous in tapping on, and tapping off at UPX Union, where the GO Presto machine has done this twice before. I was just talking to her tonight to double check on what happened...and not only that, her ticket was checked on UPX on the way down, as was my card, and I got talking to the CSA. Where is the record this time of it being checked? And the other time shown on that itinerary? There has only ever been *once* that an assistant didn't check my card for fare payment. So why is it suddenly not showing on the latest transaction records?

So let's assume for a moment that I had missed tapping off, then where is my concession on both the charged fare, *and* the maximum of any ride that could have been taken from that station?

I've been through this time and again on the phone with GO, and time and again I'm assured that that algorithm would be addressed. I always get a refund, but dammit, I'm getting freakin' tired of this. How many other times am I and others getting charged because Presto is a piece of...work?

I'm getting just a little tired of dealing with them. It's not the agents' problem, they get the brunt of this, it's idiots in the front offices who don't give a flying fig.

If I ding you for a penalty charge on a service I provide to you, the onus is on me to itemize and qualify it. That's the *minimum* of the basics of business practice. There is no itemization of when or why they not only charged me for a ride I didn't take, they also charged me *double* the rate for the fare and the penalty. Not only that, can someone make sense of the "half price concession fare" that never is?

 

[steveintoronto]

If this were a private sector company collecting these funds, there's no way we'd consider this unreliability acceptable. Imagine if this were a credit card company.

One of these days there should be an audit one of these days to determine how many millions of dollars GTA commuters have been cheated out of thanks to Metrolinx's inability to implement this software.

Bingo! I answered Fitz' post before reading yours. And it goes beyond getting cheated out of money, we're also *cheated out of trust*! There are periods where I have to carry missives in my already busy mind to take note of things about Presto that I shouldn't have to. It's like checkout machines in stupidmarkets, where you've been fighting with computereez all day, and now you have to play the game of some Mickey Mouse 'automatic time saving device' that's anything but.

I'm an electronic tech, design equipment and components, worked in the UK, US as well as here, with international companies. I love tech, I'm anything but a Luddite. But the onus is on the designer to build their equipment for the average person to use with minimum intrusion into their intended use for the device. It's a tool, not an end in itself.

If cars were designed by computer nerds or orgs like Presto, there'd be a hell of a lot more people walking and cycling...

There's times I just buy a paper ticket with my Presto card, as I just don't want to be bothered playing their freakin fanciful game, and then losing by doing it.

 

[nfitz]

It missed a tap. Call it in. It happens.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bingo! I answered Fitz' post before reading yours. And it goes beyond getting cheated out of money, we're also *cheated out of trust*! There are periods where I have to carry missives in my already busy mind to take note of things about Presto that I shouldn't have to. It's like checkout machines in stupidmarkets, where you've been fighting with computereez all day, and now you have to play the game of some Mickey Mouse 'automatic time saving device' that's anything but.

I'm an electronic tech, design equipment and components, worked in the UK, US as well as here, with international companies. I love tech, I'm anything but a Luddite. But the onus is on the designer to build their equipment for the average person to use with minimum intrusion into their intended use for the device. It's a tool, not an end in itself.

If cars were designed by computer nerds or orgs like Presto, there'd be a hell of a lot more people walking and cycling...

There's times I just buy a paper ticket with my Presto card, as I just don't want to be bothered playing their freakin fanciful game, and then losing by doing it.

It missed a tap. Call it in. It happens.

It happens... It happens too often. This should not be a normal occurrence. Financial transactions need to be accurate virtually 100% of the time (whatever the industry standard is). Presto is nowhere near that reliability. And then there's the issue with the unacceptably high downtime of Presto readers. TTC's readers are operational 90% of the tim, when they should be operational 99.9% of the time. Think of all that lost revenue.

 

[steveintoronto]

It missed a tap. Call it in. It happens.

Damn right it happens. Chronically. Ditto for the lack of the correct concession being applied. Also chronic.

Why is the onus on me to have to take half an hour or more every time this happens to straighten out the mistakes that it also takes time to find when it *shouldn't happen in the first place*!

I've *never* had to call up my credit card or debit card handlers for a problem. It just doesn't happen. The technology is there to make this work...it's just that Presto hasn't found it yet...*Because they don't have to*. In an open market, the consumer has a choice. Not with Presto.

Edit: Once again, Tiger nails it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It happens... It happens too often. This should not be a normal occurrence. Financial transactions need to be accurate virtually 100% of the time (whatever the industry standard is). Presto is nowhere near that reliability. And then there's the issue with the unacceptably high downtime of Presto readers. TTC's readers are operational 90% of the tim, when they should be operational 99.9% of the time.

If Presto were a private company, they'd be on their way to a well deserved lawsuit at this point, to reimburse operators for millions in lost revenue, and to potentially reimburse customers for overcharging. Presto will get a pass because they're publicly owned. This is not acceptable. If this were Bombarider implementing this system, nobody would find this remotely acceptable.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

For anyone who thinks Presto's issues aren't a big deal recall that Presto is a financial operator that will soon be trusted with the handling of around $1.5 Billion in annual revenue. $1.1 Billion of this is TTC revenue.

- Presto's TTC readers seem to be down at rates of 6%. If these issues persist, that could represent $66 Million in lost annual revenue

- Presto is frequently erroneously charging customers. If this is happing 1% of the time, that's $15 Million annually that Metrolinx has erroneously charged customers.

I hope it can be seen why this isn't acceptable level of reliability for financial transactions.

On top of that, let's not forget that Presto cost taxpayers $400 Million in capital, and tens of millions of dollars in annual fare revenue to operate - fare revenue that could've gone to actual transit services. Metrolinx has had nearly 10 years to perfect Presto's implementation, and three years to perfect implementation on the TTC's system

 

[Steve X]

For anyone who thinks Presto's issues aren't a big deal recall that Presto is a financial operator that will soon be trusted with the handling of around $1.5 Billion in annual revenue. $1.1 Billion of this is TTC revenue.

- Presto's TTC readers seem to be down at rates of 6%. If these issues persist, that could represent $66 Million in lost annual revenue

- Presto is frequently erroneously charging customers. If this is happing 1% of the time, that's $15 Million annually that Metrolinx has erroneously charged customers.

I hope it can be seen why this isn't acceptable level of reliability for financial transactions.

On top of that, let's not forget that Presto cost taxpayers $400 Million in capital, and tens of millions of dollars in annual fare revenue to operate - fare revenue that could've gone to actual transit services. Metrolinx has had nearly 10 years to perfect Presto's implementation, and three years to perfect implementation on the TTC's system

Honestly they are still installing the readers on TTC buses. This could be just a teething issue but the question is how much readers are failing in other cities. Particularly OC Transpo who is using the same newer gen readers.

The subway readers seem to be okay everything I use them. Sure one fails once in a while but it's not that problematic as the readers on buses. I'll let that go too.

About that GO reader on the UPX platform, that thing takes a heck of a long time, over a day to update sometimes. Maybe it's about time to avoid it if it keeps dinging people randomly.

Presto is garbage after all.

 

[steveintoronto]

Star has two articles on it today:
[As I follow the ups and downs (and further downs) of the Presto card rollout on the TTC, I sometimes take a step back and ask myself: what problems is this supposed to solve?

I mean specifically for riders. What problem do riders have with the current fare system to which Presto is thought to be the answer? I can’t, for the life of me, think of a good answer.][...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ransfer-to-a-new-set-of-headaches-keenan.html

[The cost of installing the Presto fare card system on the TTC has exceeded initial budget estimates, the Star has learned, and the project is still not complete.

Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency in charge of the Presto program, says it doesn’t know how much the bill will eventually come to, and is declining to provide an estimate of final costs until an unspecified later date.

As of March 31, however, the agency had spent $276.7 million deploying Presto on the TTC, according to numbers provided by Metrolinx. That’s almost $22 million higher than the agency’s 2012 estimate of $255 million.

The $276.6-million figure doesn’t reflect work that has yet to be completed or was finished after March 31; those jobs include completing Presto deployment at all subway stations, installing additional self-serve reload machines and fare vending devices across the network, and rolling out fare card readers on all 1,900 TTC buses and 500 Wheel-Trans vehicles.

Also unaccounted for are the future cost of upgrading the Presto system — which currently enables riders to pay their fare with a tap of a prepaid card — to allow for direct payment using credit or debit cards, and the cost of migrating TTC passes onto Presto.][...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...lout-on-ttc-running-millions-over-budget.html

 

[Steve X]

Star has two articles on it today:
[As I follow the ups and downs (and further downs) of the Presto card rollout on the TTC, I sometimes take a step back and ask myself: what problems is this supposed to solve?

I mean specifically for riders. What problem do riders have with the current fare system to which Presto is thought to be the answer? I can’t, for the life of me, think of a good answer.][...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ransfer-to-a-new-set-of-headaches-keenan.html

[The cost of installing the Presto fare card system on the TTC has exceeded initial budget estimates, the Star has learned, and the project is still not complete.

Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency in charge of the Presto program, says it doesn’t know how much the bill will eventually come to, and is declining to provide an estimate of final costs until an unspecified later date.

As of March 31, however, the agency had spent $276.7 million deploying Presto on the TTC, according to numbers provided by Metrolinx. That’s almost $22 million higher than the agency’s 2012 estimate of $255 million.

The $276.6-million figure doesn’t reflect work that has yet to be completed or was finished after March 31; those jobs include completing Presto deployment at all subway stations, installing additional self-serve reload machines and fare vending devices across the network, and rolling out fare card readers on all 1,900 TTC buses and 500 Wheel-Trans vehicles.

Also unaccounted for are the future cost of upgrading the Presto system — which currently enables riders to pay their fare with a tap of a prepaid card — to allow for direct payment using credit or debit cards, and the cost of migrating TTC passes onto Presto.][...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...lout-on-ttc-running-millions-over-budget.html

Of course it would be over budget. It's something The Star wants to pick on. TTC decided to install them on 200+ older streetcars is BBD's fault and they should really be charged a portion of that bill. If we had 50 new streetcars maybe we don't need to waste as much money.

Deploying on the oldest New Flyer buses is just stupid. They could just skipped them cause those 50 buses retired with readers within 2-5 months of receiving on.

As for new fare gates, they should applaud TTC/Metrolinx cause eventually TTC will have to replace the turnstile when they modernize the fare line in stations. Doing it now means they don't have to waste money installing them on every old turnstile just to rip them out in a couple years.

Also TTC has a much larger fleet of buses than 2012. Approximately 200 more buses!