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Metrolinx: Finch West LRT

fanoftoronto

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The bolded is incorrect because of deadhead time and conflicts with Line 1 traffic.

The existing 4-car, Line 4 trains are already serviced at Wilson, they simply aren't stored there because of the deadhead/capacity issues. It takes about an hour to get a train from Wilson yard to Line 4, each direction.

That conflict is actually marginally increased by longer train lengths which mean more physical space being occupied by deadheading trains.

This isn't just operator time, or electricity costs, though it is both of those; its about the ability to start up and ramp down Line 1 service, and the overnight maintenance window for tracks/tunnels which is already quite small.

The space is the new yard is to support new trains required for Line 1, that's why there isn't any room for trains from Line 4.

So when Line 4 is extended east, what's stopping them from using the new Yonge north yard to store the Line 4 trains? Move the Line 1 trains to Wilson instead. There's plenty of space in Wilson to accommodate the entire fleet of Line 1 trains.

There's also Greenwood yard that could be dedicated to Line 4 trains.

That simply isn't a case I've made, at all, ever. Please read what I have posted, carefully.
Please see below for why you think the Sheppard west extension should be made.

The primary case for Sheppard West is connecting Line 4 to Wilson Yard to provide easier, less time consuming deadhead movements and potentially avoid the cost of building a new yard for Sheppard East.

Serving passengers is more incidental to that since the tunnel would be there anyway;

Incidentally serving passengers is the wrong way to do public works project planning.

Question, will there be more demand for the Finch east extension to Yonge station, or Sheppard west extension to Sheppard west station? Bear in mind one costs $2.8 billion and the other costs $0.72 billion.

I was being VERY conservative.

Here is the capital budget line item for the new Obico yard for Line 2:

1664568891650.png



Source: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-199568.pdf

And the line is right there, more or less.

By comparison, the only place an eastern yard is going is CP's existing Toronto Yard. Assuming CP agreed to sell some or all of that yard to TTC, the connecting track would be significant back to Sheppard.

The Obico yard is humongous. Rivalling the Wilson yard in size. Enough to service Line 2 with it's Scarborough extension with tons of space left. You would need less than a third of that to service just Sheppard with it's extensions. Your $1 billion would be more in line with the requirements of Line 4 with its extension.

Incidentally, in the document you linked, there's no mention of requiring a western extension Line 4 to alleviate deadheading issues you keep bringing up. Why doesn't TTC think it's a big enough problem to be addressed?

You keep using the word 'arguing'.

I am simply putting forward the facts. Not because I desperately want to build this, I'm not part of a pro-Sheppard extension movement.

I just find the case for Finch as an alternative to Sheppard unconvincing in light of the facts.

Stating something as fact didn't make it so.
 

SaugeenJunction

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I really dont think Finch should go East from where it is now. Extending the Sheppard subway west is a much better use of funds.
I actually agree for few reasons. If the Province gets its way and extends Sheppard east to the SSE, it kinda makes sense to also go west to Sheppard West station. That way you have a single, high capacity northern crosstown line. The Wilson Yard connection is valuable, and you’d create a really almost direct route from the booming Sheppard Yonge area to York U, VMC etc.

I think something we can all agree on is Finch LRT to Woodbine and YYZ. That is a low hanging fruit project that needs to happen.
 

Northern Light

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So when Line 4 is extended east, what's stopping them from using the new Yonge north yard to store the Line 4 trains? Move the Line 1 trains to Wilson instead. There's plenty of space in Wilson to accommodate the entire fleet of Line 1 trains.

There's also Greenwood yard that could be dedicated to Line 4 trains.


Please see below for why you think the Sheppard west extension should be made.



Incidentally serving passengers is the wrong way to do public works project planning.

Question, will there be more demand for the Finch east extension to Yonge station, or Sheppard west extension to Sheppard west station? Bear in mind one costs $2.8 billion and the other costs $0.72 billion.



The Obico yard is humongous. Rivalling the Wilson yard in size. Enough to service Line 2 with it's Scarborough extension with tons of space left. You would need less than a third of that to service just Sheppard with it's extensions. Your $1 billion would be more in line with the requirements of Line 4 with its extension.

Incidentally, in the document you linked, there's no mention of requiring a western extension Line 4 to alleviate deadheading issues you keep bringing up. Why doesn't TTC think it's a big enough problem to be addressed?



Stating something as fact didn't make it so.

I've carefully explained concepts like deadheading and maintenance windows several times now, and you completely ignore those explanations.

You have also ignored, repeatedly what I have said about demand and instead focused on a line of mine that you are misinterpreting.

The point of that line was that the connection to Wilson is the driving reason that a tunnel needs to exist, therefore the cost of adding stations and serving riders is accretive and modest (the cost of adding the stations is 200-400M each depending on size and design).

For the record, demand resulting from the Downsview development alone is greater than any demand on Finch between Finch West and Finch Stations. Further, there is additional, significant development coming to the Sheppard corridor.

Under no circumstances will Greenwood Yard ever service Line 4.
 

11th

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I actually agree for few reasons. If the Province gets its way and extends Sheppard east to the SSE, it kinda makes sense to also go west to Sheppard West station. That way you have a single, high capacity northern crosstown line. The Wilson Yard connection is valuable, and you’d create a really almost direct route from the booming Sheppard Yonge area to York U, VMC etc.

I think something we can all agree on is Finch LRT to Woodbine and YYZ. That is a low hanging fruit project that needs to happen.
I think it's also an added benefit to have a route crossing both branches of the Don that's not affected by the weather.
 

11th

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How exactly would that be a good connection when the subway is two story under? Plus the properties in that neighbourhood are worth millions. Richer people matters more in decision making and they would not build an eyesore there. They have more ability to speak out and more money to hire lawyers to fight such a decision. Thorncliffe Park would totally be okay cause poor people can either take it or not get anything.

I do think Finch West to Dufferin should be tunneled to help commercial truck movements. They need a grade separation with the Barrie Line anyways. East of Dufferin to Talbot could remain on the surface. Ridership is supposedly lower between Finch West and Finch. A shallow tunnel from Talbot to Finch Station would help reduce connection time to the subway.

Probably it would remain tunneled to the Don River shall the line extend east of Yonge. Then it could be surface to about Don Mills where it can meet up with the future OL. The line could be elevated from Don Mills to Victoria Park to get pass the 404. If they ever build it out that far east. East of that, a surface LRT should be fine. They could connect it to Line 2 either by turning south on McCowan or extend Line 2 to Finch. They can build a subway on Sheppard for all they want.
That section is a tough one (cost wise). There's a creek at Bayview, and the East Don is a deep ravine.
 

fanoftoronto

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I've carefully explained concepts like deadheading and maintenance windows several times now, and you completely ignore those explanations.

You have also ignored, repeatedly what I have said about demand and instead focused on a line of mine that you are misinterpreting.

The point of that line was that the connection to Wilson is the driving reason that a tunnel needs to exist, therefore the cost of adding stations and serving riders is accretive and modest (the cost of adding the stations is 200-400M each depending on size and design).

Yes, you have explained how deadheading and maintenance could be a problem for Line 4. What you haven't shown is how much of an impact it actually has on the TTC.

Where are your sources that these issues are causing a large enough problem for the TTC to warrant an expensive tunnel link between Sheppard-Yonge and Wilson yard?

Just the tunnels alone would cost upwards of $1.5 billion. Such capital is reserved for projects as crucial as the Yonge station expansion. Is deadheading and maintenance such a big issue as compared to expanding the busiest subway station in Canada?

I don't dispute that Sheppard is seeing massive investment along the route but as the current Sheppard subway is evidence, condo developments along a subway doesn't result in a busy subway line. Bus, streetcar, and LRT transfers result in high ridership. And most of the Finch LRT riders would be continuing past the current terminus at Finch West and going to Finch station, arguably resulting in higher passengers per hour per direction (pphpd) than a Line 4 west extension. Line 4 west extension would definitely not see the required 10,000 pphpd to warrant heavy rail subway.

And finally, I'll ask why Greenwood would never service Line 4?
 
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Rainforest

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IMO, the connection between the two sides of Line 1 should be done by both Sheppard Subway and Finch LRT. Their roles wouldn't overlap. Sheppard Subway for the network connectivity, for example the trips between the east side and York U / Vaughan; as well as for the Wilson Yard connection. Finch LRT for taking the Etobicoke residents to Yonge without having to transfer at Keele, plus the local service on Finch West, the street that can support high density if desired.

The relative timing is mostly political, as of now it looks like Sheppard has a chance to go first (Dough Ford etc). After 2026 though, Finch LRT might have a chance, dependent on who wins the elections.

It should be noted that once the Phase 1 of Finch LRT is in operation, residents of Etobicoke and their Councillors / MPPs will be pushing to extend it both ways, east to Yonge and west to Pearson, and thus reduce the transfers.

There exists a degree of conflict between the Finch extension work and the Yonge North extension work. The work areas will not overlap, as the existing Yonge Line tracks end well north of Finch. However, the Steeles W, Steeles E, VIVA, YRT buses will need a route to bypass the work zone on Yonge to reach the Finch station. If Finch avenue is blocked at the same time, their task will be harder. Therefore, even if the Finch Keele-to-Yonge extension is funded soon after 2026, I do not expect the construction to start until early 203x, when the YNSE work is mostly completed.

Speaking about the Finch LRT alignment, I believe the current plan is good enough: street median for the most part, underground from Beecroft to Yonge. The Hydro Corridor option would be tricky in this case: new Barrie GO line crossing, the need to bypass the G. Ross Pond somehow, plus the line would be located away from the trip generators on the south of Finch: Branson Hospital and the multistoreys near Wilmington. Full underground would be an overkill, especially if the Sheppard West extension gets built as well.

The idea to keep Finch LRT underground between Keele and Dufferin is interesting, but I'm not sure if trucks really need that. To my understanding, rail tracks are not a problem for trucks, one just needs to make sure there are no fences and no LRT station structures obstructing the truck turns.
 
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Rainforest

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The Finch LRT extension further east past Yonge is a nice to have, but frankly isn't very likely to happen if the Sheppard East subway extension goes first. Especially, if Sheppard remains a wide-body TTC subway.

Sheppard's ridership will increase if it stretches all the way from McCowan to Dufferin, but it will still have lots of spare capacity. TTC will be inclined to feed the riders from the east into the Sheppard subway, rather than operate a long LRT line running just 2 km north Sheppard.

A 4-km "overlap" between Yonge and Dufferin will be easier to stomach; but another 12 km from Yonge to Kennedy? less likely.
 

11th

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The Finch LRT extension further east past Yonge is a nice to have, but frankly isn't very likely to happen if the Sheppard East subway extension goes first. Especially, if Sheppard remains a wide-body TTC subway.

Sheppard's ridership will increase if it stretches all the way from McCowan to Dufferin, but it will still have lots of spare capacity. TTC will be inclined to feed the riders from the east into the Sheppard subway, rather than operate a long LRT line running just 2 km north Sheppard.

A 4-km "overlap" between Yonge and Dufferin will be easier to stomach; but another 12 km from Yonge to Kennedy? less likely.
The dividing line is around Victoria Park Av. Anywhere east of that, it is faster to transfer to an extended line 4.
Density on Finch East is also very nodal; meaning most of its ridership in Scaborough can easily be absorbed by line 4.
 

MrGoose

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Why not convert the Sheppard subway for LRT vehicles and then connect the Sheppard subway to the Finch LRT.

That way , we have a single crosstown LRT in the north.
 

T3G

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Why not convert the Sheppard subway for LRT vehicles and then connect the Sheppard subway to the Finch LRT.

That way , we have a single crosstown LRT in the north.
This post seems at odds with the message presented in your signature. If we already have a subway, why convert it to LRT? The biggest waste of money (tunneling) has already occurred, any kind of conversion to LRT now would be throwing good money after bad.

And where exactly would you connect the two?
 

Rainforest

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Why not convert the Sheppard subway for LRT vehicles and then connect the Sheppard subway to the Finch LRT.

That way , we have a single crosstown LRT in the north.

That's doable, but the resulting crosstown line will be relatively slow; my estimate is 70 min from Finch&Kipling to Sheppard&McCowan.

If your origin is on Finch West and your destination is on Sheppard East, or one way around, then it is still better than what's available today. But in all other cases, riders will have shorter travel times simply following the grid and using buses, rather than going out of their way to use the LRT. Say, Finch West to Finch East, the fastest option will be the LRT and then the Finch East bus, rather than the LRT all the way and then a north-south bus. Or, Wilson to Ellesmere, the fastest option will be taking buses all the way.

If it's not going to be an appealing east-west trunk line, then there is no point diverting from the grid. Makes more sense to keep the Finch line on Finch, and the Sheppard line on Sheppard. If really desired, one can add a rush-hour branch of Finch LRT down Allen Road to Sheppard West, where it will meet the Sheppard line terminus. But the main branch of Finch LRT should go straight to Yonge IMO, there should be more riders who want to go there.
 

TheTigerMaster

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I really dont think Finch should go East from where it is now. Extending the Sheppard subway west is a much better use of funds.
The Sheppard Subway doesn't do anything to improve trips for the tens of thousands of FWLRT commuters who need to travel towards Yonge. Without FWLRT, they're forced to make a transfer at Keele.
 

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