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Metrolinx: Finch West LRT

smallspy

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How many times do you want to replace a line? Remember, parts of Bloor and Yonge were streetcars. They were upgraded to subways. Imagine if we did that for everything? That would be a waste. Why not future proof the lines?
With what money?

If the ridership projection is never within any planning horizon likely to approach the required capacity for a subway, is it really "future proofing"?

You really don't seem to understand, there isn't an infinite amount of money that can be spent on transit projects. This isn't about "future proofing", this is about making sure that we get as much transit - subway, LRT, BRT, regular bus, whatever - to as much of the population as possible.

Because of that, the transit needs to be right-sized to the area serving it. Sure, it would be nice to put a subway underneath every single concession - but where will that money come from? Subways cost a humongous amount of money to build and operate, and because of that there really is only a small number of corridors in the City where they can be justified.

Dan
 

Tuscani01

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With what money?

If the ridership projection is never within any planning horizon likely to approach the required capacity for a subway, is it really "future proofing"?

You really don't seem to understand, there isn't an infinite amount of money that can be spent on transit projects. This isn't about "future proofing", this is about making sure that we get as much transit - subway, LRT, BRT, regular bus, whatever - to as much of the population as possible.

Because of that, the transit needs to be right-sized to the area serving it. Sure, it would be nice to put a subway underneath every single concession - but where will that money come from? Subways cost a humongous amount of money to build and operate, and because of that there really is only a small number of corridors in the City where they can be justified.

Dan
I mean, we would afford it if we defunded police, stopped funding military, eliminated oil subsidies, and increased taxes on the wealthiest - but the same people crying for subways everywhere are the same people against doing all of those things.
 

micheal_can

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There are GO Lines that can act as express service for Yonge, but nothing that would work for E-W in the north end. It is one thing to build a new line with a view to enabling express service vs fundamentally rebuilding Yonge. I don't think you could run more trains on the existing line, so we're talking twinning Yonge, which would be a significant engineering challenge. Not saying it shouldn't be done. Just different orders of magnitude incremental investment.
I did not mean existing Subway lines. I mean building a new line to act as an express on the existing line. There are no GO lines that parallel it close enough to act as an express.

Pigs will fly before we build a proper heavy rail subway to Pickering. As others have said, Pickering is getting GO RER. Only a largely at-grade or above grade solution would work for extending one of the more northerly lines that far.
The same could have been said about extending it north to York Region or west to Mississauga. I feel that within 50 years, Mississauga and Pickering will have a subway to Toronto.

Building something that costs 10x more 40 years before it is needed doesn't seem like a good investment. Wouldn't we be better off investing a given set of $ in infrastructure that covers more area, provides broader service and has reasonable utilization in the near future?
Then don't build it. Build only routes that have the service, not, to win votes.

With what money?

If the ridership projection is never within any planning horizon likely to approach the required capacity for a subway, is it really "future proofing"?

You really don't seem to understand, there isn't an infinite amount of money that can be spent on transit projects. This isn't about "future proofing", this is about making sure that we get as much transit - subway, LRT, BRT, regular bus, whatever - to as much of the population as possible.

Because of that, the transit needs to be right-sized to the area serving it. Sure, it would be nice to put a subway underneath every single concession - but where will that money come from? Subways cost a humongous amount of money to build and operate, and because of that there really is only a small number of corridors in the City where they can be justified.

Dan
Then only build that with the most demand. That means that the SRT would remain as is, and the Sheppard line would not have been built.

I mean, we would afford it if we defunded police, stopped funding military, eliminated oil subsidies, and increased taxes on the wealthiest - but the same people crying for subways everywhere are the same people against doing all of those things.
I don't think subways are the answer, unless the demand is there. The bus routes with the highest service should be converted, but others, leave as is.
 

Rainforest

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I mean, we would afford it if we defunded police, stopped funding military, eliminated oil subsidies, and increased taxes on the wealthiest - but the same people crying for subways everywhere are the same people against doing all of those things.
Defund the police = enable armed street gangs who will guard their area, collect "taxes" from the locals, and fight neighbouring street gangs. Who will disarm those gangs - police? Nope (defunded)

Defund the military = invite certain overseas dictators to land their troops and help themselves to some land. Canada has lots of land and they won't mind taking it. Maybe the Americans will move in and repeal the overseas invaders, they don't want them to set hold on the continent. But then the Americans will be in charge and they will make us pay as much as they feel like, even if they will kind of recognize our sovereignty on paper.

Oil brings $8B in government revenues annually, vs taking $3.3B in government subsidies. Presumably some of those subsidies are needed to keep the revenues flowing, while other subsidies may be political and not really necessary. Assume 1/2 of the subsidies ($1.7B) can be diverted to fund transit, and split between the provinces, Ontario would get maybe $450 million annually. Not bad, but not enough to solve all problems.

The wealthiest don't feel like paying more taxes, are well-equipped for legally reducing their taxes, and if you pressure them hard, many will leave the country and take their wealth with them. You won't squeeze much extra water from that sponge.

Instead of the fantasy ideas, we should introduce a dedicated transit tax, perhaps by increasing HST, paid by most of residents (the poorest will get a refund same way they are getting the HST refund). That will result in a predictable revenue stream and allow for planned transit construction. People are capable of making some sacrifices today for the sake of future benefits, when they have a clear vision of those future goals.
 

micheal_can

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(removed the sillyness)

Instead of the fantasy ideas, we should introduce a dedicated transit tax, perhaps by increasing HST, paid by most of residents (the poorest will get a refund same way they are getting the HST refund). That will result in a predictable revenue stream and allow for planned transit construction. People are capable of making some sacrifices today for the sake of future benefits, when they have a clear vision of those future goals.
Many cities do have something. Vancouver has one added to their gas prices. That is why they can build so much so fast.
 

anb

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It would never be 'subway'. It would have to be mostly at-grade or above-grade.
Well whatever rt option comes to kingston rd sooner, the better
I mean, we are getting a LSE RER with 5, 10, 15 minute headways from Pickering Town Centre within this decade 😛 hopefully it is well integrated with the Kingston Rd/Dundas St. BRT
Thats true. Its so funny how this is the only rapid transit service in scarborough in some areas instead of getting provided with a convenient express service via ttc
 

Coolstar

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What in god's name happened to this thread?
I thought this was the Finch West LRT thread. Been off topic for 3 straight pages. All the ways to make use of the Sheppard Line are all very interesting but other than an extension to Sheppard/McCowan and Sheppard West, I highly doubt we'll see an extension of Line 4 to Pickering Town Centre, the Airport or even MCC or Brampton Downtown in the near future. GO RER will bring rapid transit-like service to the distant suburbs for the time being.
 

north-of-anything

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Something actually Finch West-related now. What would stop spacing look like on an extension to Yonge, I wonder? Some of the blocks are easy, like Dufferin > Wilmington > Goldfinch > Bathurst. What about between Keele and Dufferin?

If Bolton GO service is ever introduced, and it involves taking the CN Halton - GO Newmarket route, it would be very convenient to have an exchange station right at the rail corridor... except it's a little bit of a walk to reach pretty much anything around here. Alness/Champagne is a nice corner but is it too close to Dufferin? This also all assumes that the fuel depots will stay where they are (which is likely but not certain) as opposed to intensifying development on Finch there. The street grid on this stretch of Finch is not ideal, but there's little that can be gained from making it more conducive to development.
 

yoshirocks702

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I recall there were two alignments considered for Bolton Go, one went through Weston and Finch and the other went through I think near Finch and Chesswood, and the report considered the Chesswood alignment as preferred, I'll try and dig it up.
 

duffo

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Something actually Finch West-related now. What would stop spacing look like on an extension to Yonge, I wonder? Some of the blocks are easy, like Dufferin > Wilmington > Goldfinch > Bathurst. What about between Keele and Dufferin?
Keele/Finch West Station > Chesswood > Dufferin > Wilmington > "Northview" (Virgilwood Dr) > Bathurst > Senlac > "Edithvale" (West of Talbot Dr) > Beecroft > Yonge/Finch Station
 

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