Metrolinx: Fare integration ideas

[Whoaccio]

Found this on Steve Munro's site (whatever you say about the guy, he is a transit news aggregating machine!). Sort of relevant:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/8976.aspx

 

[urbanfan89]

Meanwhile, Torontonians continue to hear about the wonders of Presto as the salvation of regional travel. I must emphasize that I don’t object to technology per se, but in London’s case there was an overwhelming need to replace an antiquated and complex fare structure and fare collection system.

 

[RedRocket191]

Steve Munro has traditionally been in favour of a regional flat fare. If that system is adopted, then there will be no need for a fare card.

One token = one ride anywhere.

If you have fare by distance on any one part of the system, then there is a market for Presto.

 

[Whoaccio]

Steve Munro has traditionally been in favour of a regional flat fare. If that system is adopted, then there will be no need for a fare card.

One token = one ride anywhere.

If you have fare by distance on any one part of the system, then there is a market for Presto.

I don't understand the advantages of a regional flat fare. I especially don't see why Steve Munro likes the idea. If a regional LRT scheme, or just about any other large scale "regional" scheme, was implemented fare prices would surely normalize to a level above 3$/ticket. With a flat fare system, long haul riders would in effect be subsidized by local commuters, given the greater amount of necessary infrastructure for long-haul trips. To an extent, you can sort of see this downtown. The streetcar presents no obvious benefits over, say, biking or walking at the flat TTC fare. That may be desirable (to incentivize suburban usage of public transit), but Steve Munro's entire thrust in numerous other threads relates to providing "local" transit. Given the larger differential in a regional context, I can only imagine that local transit will be further discriminated against under a regional flat fare than currently is the case under a Toronto flat fare.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

One token = one ride, but what about day/week/metropasses? Or about not needing to lug around tokens? There's still plenty of reasons why fare cards might be preferable beyond their ability to automatically calculate fares by distance.

Would there be as much incentive to expand suburban GO service if fares were cut in half? Vehicles are already running quite full so it's not like the reduced fare will generate more revenue by filling up empty trains and buses.

 

[RedRocket191]

One token = one ride, but what about day/week/metropasses? Or about not needing to lug around tokens? There's still plenty of reasons why fare cards might be preferable beyond their ability to automatically calculate fares by distance.

Would there be as much incentive to expand suburban GO service if fares were cut in half? Vehicles are already running quite full so it's not like the reduced fare will generate more revenue by filling up empty trains and buses.

"One token = one ride" rolls off the tongue much better than "One Metropass = 49.7777778 + rides"

In my personal opinion, GO's fares represent good value in the current climate. There need to be some adjustments on certain routes (York U to Bramalea comes to mind), but overall its good value. What really needs to be addressed is fare integration between GO and local transit services.

Of course, once we make changes to the fare system and build more competing rapid transit lines GO might not seem such a good value anymore.

 

[nfitz]

My annoyance with tokens has been reduced now that the small ticket sellers are carrying them.

 

[Anth]

One token = one ride, but what about day/week/metropasses? Or about not needing to lug around tokens? There's still plenty of reasons why fare cards might be preferable beyond their ability to automatically calculate fares by distance.

Exactly. This is so obvious it makes me wonder whether some of you use our transit system at all.

And of course Munro would be against anything that smacks of regionalization since he's still stuck in mid-20th century Hogtown and apparently has never ventured outside it.

 

[Whoaccio]

Could the costs of an RFID card system be decreased by spreading the program over a larger range of activities than just the TTC? I seem to remember that in HK, the octopus card is usable for taxis and a whole range of small debit like purchases. What if Toronto just issued an RFP for a digital currency? Apply it to all parking meters, convenience stores, cabs and transit in the region.

 

[RedRocket191]

Exactly. This is so obvious it makes me wonder whether some of you use our transit system at all.

Who is this at?

Who's "some of you"?

Could the costs of an RFID card system be decreased by spreading the program over a larger range of activities than just the TTC? I seem to remember that in HK, the octopus card is usable for taxis and a whole range of small debit like purchases. What if Toronto just issued an RFP for a digital currency? Apply it to all parking meters, convenience stores, cabs and transit in the region.

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: While I'm sure Metrolinx would be able to get all transit agencies on side for Presto, since they control the purse strings for Presto, they don't have anything more than the power of persuasion for those other things. I'm sure some agencies and companies would be in favour of it, but I'm sure you know that others are hard to move.

 

[drum118]

Just thinks how many 10's of million $$ can be save yearly by having free transit.

You don't have to worry about the system getting hack.

You will have no need to buy equipment to issue fare value, collect the fare, data base to determined how much money to charge, fare enforcers, computer operators, software developers and the list goes on. Then you have the people that have to go around collecting the money, delivery what every, accountants to audit the money and what every.

The only software you will need is GPS and counters. You will still need some computer operators to maintain the info, but at a fraction of what it cost today, let alone what been plan.

If you really want people to get out of their vehicles, you are going to needs something else beside more service.

Free transit or a flat fare for the whole region is the way to go.

Otherwise, it going to cost more to try to cover the over lapping of systems. IE GO and TTC. There is a need to be able to transfer freely between TTC and GO in the 416 and the same thing needs to happen in the 905.

Riders will not have to worry if they got the right change or card.

At the same time, loading of vehicles will be a lot faster than having the Presto card which will improve service.

Again, not everyone is going to the same place ie Toronto Core.

You tell someone that lives at Brownline and Evan Ave who wants to go to the Metro Zoo that they will have more money to use TTC than it does today because of the fare by distance would be greater than the flat fare currently in place by TTC, they will say stuff it and drive especially its a family. If they don't have a car, it will be sorry kids.

 

[urbanfan89]

In somewhat related news, MIT students discovered an exploit to charge the Boston Transit Farecard. They were about to go public, but MBTA had an injunction just in time:
http://www.informationweek.com/news...ml?articleID=210002185&subSection=All+Stories

 

[SteveMunro]

Flat Fare Misconceptions

A bit earlier in this thread, it was claimed that I have advocated a flat fare across the GTA. This is not true.

I have advocated that the single fare, whatever it may be, purchase in effect a limited time pass of, say, two hours. This would eliminate all the mess with zone boundary definitions by giving the user two hours' worth of travel no matter what part of the system they were using. If you want to make two or three very short hops, then be my guest. If you want to ride from Bowmanville to Hamilton, you'll have to top up your fare.

If we want to make GO Rail a premium fare service, that can be handled with a surcharge but within the same basic scheme.

As for those who want to slag off my opinions because I live downtown, first I suggest that you understand and correctly present what I have to say rather than just trashing me.

I can insult suburbanites just as easily as they can insult me, but that doesn't make for an intelligent debate.

Steve

 

[RedRocket191]

Hi Steve,

The definition of regional flat fare that I used to start this thread is essentially what you have clarified that you have advocated for - unlimited travel for one fare in any part of the GTA. If it wasn't made clear that it was time limited, then I apologize but when I started this thread, I believed that a definition of regional flat fare including a time limit was implied.

Edit:

In fact, it was more than implied. It was stated clearly:

Regional Flat Fare
Passenger pay a universal fare and can travel anywhere in the Metrolinx operating area for two hours. This two-hour pass will be valid on any system, in any direction.

No insult was meant on my part.