Mayor Olivia Chow's Toronto

[picard102]

Surely there are places to put a few carts in a few spots.

That are enclosed and protected from the public? That also have a facility to store garbage for pickup by SWM? I'm sure Old Toronto isn't just leaving their golf carts out on the road.

 

[Mihairokov]

That's the BIA, they do gardening in street beds etc and generally have nothing to do with parks apart from setting up things like the Thursday night music events.

But you can understand how doing street beds and setting up tables in parks can be shifted to doing park work in parks.

That are enclosed and protected from the public? That also have a facility to store garbage for pickup by SWM? I'm sure Old Toronto isn't just leaving their golf carts out on the road.

They actually leave them on the sidewalk on Richmond occasionally through the day lol

 

[evandyk]

They actually leave them on the sidewalk on Richmond occasionally through the day lol

Or in that lane between Metro and the Hot House.

 

[txlseries4]

The assertion about under-used sports fields is generally incorrect, there are certainly some isolated examples. But for the most part, every sport, mens and womens is short of space. Teams either can't find space or not anywhere near their home area.

True for hockey, true for soccer, true for baseball too, and cricket. We're also short on tennis courts and there's other un-met demand.

My issue with "sports fields" is that they're not good for much while their intention seems to be they can be used for ~anything~, and seem more like breadcrumbs tossed out like an afterthought. Some very recreational youth leagues use ones with goal posts, but fields are often in bad shape with uneven ground, so it's a no-go for organized or pick up adult games. It's worse at school fields where you'll find divots, swaths of dirt, while even turf pitches often have strips ripped off. There are just about no park sports fields with lights that I know of, severely limiting the time (of day & of year) when people can use the field. Contrast that to the many baseball diamonds with ample lighting.

There's a deficit of fields suitable for adult sports in the city, which is pronounced in the fall and winter where "downtown" it's just Lamport and Central Tech Stadium that put up domes and are used by adult leagues. Further out are Monarch Park, Cherry Beach/Ballsports, and Downsview, but these can be a hassle for many to get to. With Central Tech just a couple minutes walk from Bathurst Station, demand is very high -- a youth academy use this location, and an adult rec league has soccer running 7 days a week, and sign up more teams than can play for a given night. My team pays to secure a spot 3-4 months in advance of upcoming seasons so we don't lose out.

A good option/solution in parks would be fenced courts with built in soccer nets and fixed basketball hoops above or even adjacent making two basketball courts. It would allow for soccer/futsal most of the year without risking ruining grass, and could accommodate 2+ pickleball courts depending on the size. The built in nets would also serve as a way for people to play ball hockey. I know there's an initiative at the City because of the World Cup to install ~12 "mini pitches" across the city with a focus on equity deserving neighbourhoods, so at least there's something.

Here's sort of what I mean, seen in near a school in Europe, approx 14m x 20m

It irks me up how much space tennis courts take up for how few people use them at a time. It doesn't seem like a good use of parkland to me, especially when considering the demographics the sport typically serves, and the absence of quality sports infrastructure for those who don't play. At a local park it's common to see 4 people on two courts with a dozen people waiting for their turn. I'm not foolish enough to think all those people would just play a different sport instead, but with limited space in parks for sports, I have a sour taste when the priority is such an inefficient use of the space (maybe I'd feel different if I played ha)

To the city's credit, they've done a good job with some rinks, opening them up in the summer where where people rollerskate or play basketball. Last and this summer the city painted pickleball court lines on the bare rink pad and people set up portable nets, like this:

 

[evandyk]

The Dufferin Grove rink is very well-used in the summer as a skateboard park. And they use half of the rink for bicycle polo a few nights a week.

 

[Mihairokov]

It irks me up how much space tennis courts take up for how few people use them at a time.

It's funny because I have this same thought about baseball fields. I feel like I hardly ever see them used for baseball - i'm confident i've seen more cricket played at the Riverdale East field. Baseball fields are designed in a way that they're basically useless for most other sports, take up a ton of space, and basically needs to be organized in order to occur. They're not like tennis courts or futsal/basketball courts where you only need two or three people to play.

 

[txlseries4]

I would imagine the parks staff at Champ-de-Mars has facilities to store their golf carts and garbage to be picked up by SWM.
What would be the cost to build facilities like that at even the top 20 parks in Toronto?

You're probably right about the storage, but I don't see why Toronto can't meet halfway between what happens now, and having bins daisy-chained to a golf cart and brought to a garbage truck, emptied, and redistributed. Right now for garbage collection in neighbourhoods a truck moves along the road as 1 or 2 workers collect bins from sidewalks and roll them to the truck. It would require bins that could be rolled, or a golf cart could have a large rolling bin hitched onto the back.

This idea might take more time, but maybe it's a toss up in practice. The other day I watched a "small" garbage truck meander through Christie Pits Park at a snails pace to empty bins throughout. A smaller vehicle wouldn't have to go nearly as slowly because it doesn't pose the same safety threat, isn't as loud, and wouldn't continually ruin the grass and leave huge ruts in the ground. It's nothing short of shameful how the city's OWN STAFF treat the parks.

This summer:

Last summer:

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Then you get multi-use fields...

FOOTBALL & SOCCER COMBO

RUGBY & SOCCER COMBO

 

[Northern Light]

My issue with "sports fields" is that they're not good for much while their intention seems to be they can be used for ~anything~, and seem more like breadcrumbs tossed out like an afterthought.

I'm not sure I understand this comment above, as it doesn't seem to fit with the one below.

The fields aren't good for much, but there's huge demand and a lack of them?

The latter is true, so I don't understand the former.

I assume your meaning fields that don't have an identified sport. I get that. My use of the term was simply to avoid listing all the different types.

Some very recreational youth leagues use ones with goal posts, but fields are often in bad shape with uneven ground, so it's a no-go for organized or pick up adult games. It's worse at school fields where you'll find divots, swaths of dirt, while even turf pitches often have strips ripped off. There are just about no park sports fields with lights that I know of, severely limiting the time (of day & of year) when people can use the field. Contrast that to the many baseball diamonds with ample lighting.

This is true. Existing fields could in man cases benefit from lighting. On some smaller park sites, an issue has been nearby homes where stadium level lighting might beam through windows and light up the inside of a house, or more likely locals concerned about noise.

I have some sympathy for the former, though this can be addressed by a well designed system with more directional/focuses lights and guards on the fixtures. along with strategic tree planting along fence lines.

I have very little sympathy with the latter, where someone has purchased a lot adjoining a park and the complains that people use it!

There is certainly room for investment here.

There's a deficit of fields suitable for adult sports in the city, which is pronounced in the fall and winter where "downtown" it's just Lamport and Central Tech Stadium that put up domes and are used by adult leagues. Further out are Monarch Park, Cherry Beach/Ballsports, and Downsview, but these can be a hassle for many to get to. With Central Tech just a couple minutes walk from Bathurst Station, demand is very high -- a youth academy use this location, and an adult rec league has soccer running 7 days a week, and sign up more teams than can play for a given night. My team pays to secure a spot 3-4 months in advance of upcoming seasons so we don't lose out.

A good option/solution in parks would be fenced courts with built in soccer nets and fixed basketball hoops above or even adjacent making two basketball courts. It would allow for soccer/futsal most of the year without risking ruining grass, and could accommodate 2+ pickleball courts depending on the size. The built in nets would also serve as a way for people to play ball hockey. I know there's an initiative at the City because of the World Cup to install ~12 "mini pitches" across the city with a focus on equity deserving neighbourhoods, so at least there's something.

Here's sort of what I mean, seen in near a school in Europe, approx 14m x 20m
View attachment 672062

I can't say I like the cages.

The City already permits junior (about 1/2 sized) soccer pitches, and is putting in more.

We can and should make the space.

Better use of school yards too.

It irks me up how much space tennis courts take up for how few people use them at a time. It doesn't seem like a good use of parkland to me, especially when considering the demographics the sport typically serves, and the absence of quality sports infrastructure for those who don't play. At a local park it's common to see 4 people on two courts with a dozen people waiting for their turn. I'm not foolish enough to think all those people would just play a different sport instead, but with limited space in parks for sports, I have a sour taste when the priority is such an inefficient use of the space (maybe I'd feel different if I played ha)

I think your perception of size is a bit off.

June Rowlands Park has a six court Tennis facility that can hold 12 singles or 24 doubles players at one time, and occupies 3000m2 (0.3ha, or 0.75 acres)

Stan Wadlow Park Main fastball diamond: 9000m2 (0.9ha, 2.7 acres), 10-12 players on field at any one time, 24 players involved in game.

Regulation Soccer Pitch - Adult size - 9000m2 (0.9ha, 2.7 acres) 22 players at any one time.

Above expressed as players per acre:

Tennis: 16-32

Baseball: 4.5 players at any one time, 9 total

Soccer: 8

 

[Northern Light]

It's funny because I have this same thought about baseball fields. I feel like I hardly ever see them used for baseball - i'm confident i've seen more cricket played at the Riverdale East field. Baseball fields are designed in a way that they're basically useless for most other sports, take up a ton of space, and basically needs to be organized in order to occur. They're not like tennis courts or futsal/basketball courts where you only need two or three people to play.

See my comment on area usage above.

But to add, one of the things most people don't get is timing and season.

By this I mean.

Most team sports are only played in the after school or weekend daytime windows.

Kids are in school much of the year during the day, and even if they weren't (July/August) their parents and coaches and their ride to the game are at work.

So a lot of facilities look empty M-F until after 5pm.

Equally, weekends, most leagues try not to start before 11am so parents and coaches don't need to up at the crack of dawn.

Then you need to factor in seasonality, most facilities aren't used over winter, of course, but baseball also tends to stop by mid-fall at the latest.

Many outdoor fields are prone to flooding and general rain cancellations in April as well.

So you're really looking for uptake from 5pm-10pm (if there are lights) on weekdays, and 11am-10pm on weekends.

Without field/court lights, June/July can book activities ending at about 9pm. May/August means a wrap no later than 8pm. September is a 7pm cut-off, and October 6pm.

 

[DSCToronto]

But you can understand how doing street beds and setting up tables in parks can be shifted to doing park work in parks.


They actually leave them on the sidewalk on Richmond occasionally through the day lol

Of course I realise that people trained to do street gardening could be (easily) trained to do parks gardening but the BIA are not the City and tend to restrict their work to streets in general and streets where they have members in particular. ,Of course, they COULD presumably be sub-contracted to work in Parks or wherever but I doubt they would take it on. Their golf carts are sometimes parked on Richmond because they have a branch office for the streets guys there (west of Sherbourne.).

 

[Mihairokov]

Of course I realise that people trained to do street gardening could be (easily) trained to do parks gardening but the BIA are not the City and tend to restrict their work to streets in general and streets where they have members in particular.

I was mostly referring to Parks using golf carts instead of oversized pickup trucks. If BIA folks can do small tasks with smaller vehicles so can Parks, within reason. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

There are also smaller vehicles that exist, like small kei trucks, that could be used. Anything to prevent these giant pickups from parking wherever they like in parks themselves. Seems like overkill and definitely wasteful.

This is true. Existing fields could in man cases benefit from lighting. On some smaller park sites, an issue has been nearby homes where stadium level lighting might beam through windows and light up the inside of a house, or more likely locals concerned about noise.

Varsity Stadium has an 11PM cutoff for their lighting, for what it's worth. Most city fields are 10PM through the summer IIRC.

Equally, weekends, most leagues try not to start before 11am so parents and coaches don't need to up at the crack of dawn.

This doesn't seem to effect winter sports where practices start at 6 or 7 in the morning.

So you're really looking for uptake from 5pm-10pm (if there are lights) on weekdays, and 11am-10pm on weekends.

Right, and what i've said is that I really don't see baseball fields used to any sort of real degree that would warrant their number and scope.

 

[Fad225]

There's certainly no question about the need to re-boot parks.

But I have to say, the author's suggestions are almost entirely off-puttingly dumb.

Lots of bureaucratic nonsense (shift the department to a different deputy City Manager, spend a year or more thinking about reclassifying parks types, add a lens or tag line to thought processes)

Utter trash.

There is certainly a need for a changing of the proverbial guard, but this is simply get the top person right and give them wide latitude and budget to rid the department of dead weight.

There is a need for less process, and less engagement. These are used as fig leaves to avoid accountability for decisions or to avoid making decisions entirely. They also contribute to over-programming; we must do something for everyone, in every single park. Jamming that into 5 acres is impossible, but jamming it into 1/2 an acre is farcical.

I have written much on the subject of a more ideal organizational structure for Parks, and all the past reorgs that have generally made matters worse. But aside from hiring the correct leader..........I wouldn't get tied up w/that.

****

The assertion about under-used sports fields is generally incorrect, there are certainly some isolated examples. But for the most part, every sport, mens and womens is short of space. Teams either can't find space or not anywhere near their home area.

True for hockey, true for soccer, true for baseball too, and cricket. We're also short on tennis courts and there's other un-met demand.

If you focus on repurposing what we have, we won't build more.

****

We need better every day upkeep, more washrooms and attractive waste receptacles.

We need better design of new/overhauled parks.

We need a minimum size for most parks of 0.4ha (1 acre) and a strong preference to creating larger spaces. You need 1ha to hold a soccer pitch and nothing else, you need more than 2ha to hold a baseball diamond.

Toronto should consider areas short of parks in an absolute sense, but also facility shortages based on wait lists.

It should then prioritize delivering 10 new or expanded table land (non ravine) parks over 10 years with every expansion delivering a minimum one net new major facility. The overall goal should be to add 15 major facilities minimum.

The City should also seek to complete ravine and waterfront park systems.

In combination, the goal should be to deliver no less than 80ha or 200 acres of net new park over 10 years. Double that would be preferred, but is likely unrealistic in cost.

There are also many tangible recommendations in the article linking park design with maintenance, including mandating features like toe-rail guards. I especially like the suggestion of considering certain parks that help give the city its “identity”, Sugar Beach, Yorkville, Berzcy..etc as flagship parks and as cultural assets, that require an additional tier of maintenance versus your everyday neighbourhood parks. I also like the suggestions for a “park economy”, and diversifying/activating parks year round with concessions etc. The meme of the trash cans aside, that is tongue and cheek, but really compelling, makes me think that we truly do settle for mediocrity in the public realm, and it does not need to be that way.

 

[DSCToronto]

There are also many tangible recommendations in the article linking park design with maintenance, including mandating features like toe-rail guards. I especially like the suggestion of considering certain parks that help give the city its “identity”, Sugar Beach, Yorkville, Berzcy..etc as flagship parks and as cultural assets, that require an additional tier of maintenance versus your everyday neighbourhood parks. I also like the suggestions for a “park economy”, and diversifying/activating parks year round with concessions etc. The meme of the trash cans aside, that is tongue and cheek, but really compelling, makes me think that we truly do settle for mediocrity in the public realm, and it does not need to be that way.

I thought that the City did have some sort of 'park hierarchy' running from 'signature parks' to 'local parks' but cannot see anything about it on the City website Maybe @NorthernLight can shed some (northern) light??.

 

[Northern Light]

I thought that the City did have some sort of 'park hierarchy' running from 'signature parks' to 'local parks' but cannot see anything about it on the City website Maybe @NorthernLight can shed some (northern) light??.

You rang?

The City does a Parks Plan roughly every 5 years. They spend oodles of money and time re-measuring the same things and reclassifying them. Typically takes 2 years and wastes at least six figures.

Example below this is from the 2011 Parks Plans.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/pe/bgrd/backgroundfile-39317.pdf

Only 2 years later:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-250425.pdf

But.....

10 years later in 2022, the above has morphed...........again.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/97fb-parkland-strategy-full-report-final.pdf

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From the Audit Report linked above:

Am I the only one who wants to know how 7 washrooms vanished from June to Aug?

There's a lot in that audit report to make note of.....