junctionist
Senior Member
What's the point of this comment?
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Mayor Miller wins award!
- Thread starter Glen
- Start date
What's the point of this comment?
King of Kensington
Senior Member
Anyone who seriously thinks David Miller is a "fascist" does not deserve to be taken seriously.
CDL.TO
Moderator
This raises a good question...
How much does Toronto spend per citizen on non-provincially-mandated expenses, and how does this figure compare to other cities?
(And are there any reasons why such a statistic would not be valid?)
How much does Toronto spend per citizen on non-provincially-mandated expenses, and how does this figure compare to other cities?
(And are there any reasons why such a statistic would not be valid?)
lordmandeep
Banned
its rather simple, we want mega billion dollar subway extensions from the federal govt and I think the city could set aside a 100-150 million a year to slowly extend its subway. If we started this a while ago, we could have had A Eglinton Subway made by our own money....
Really the city has a damn 8.2 billion dollar budget and 150 million is literally nothing...
BlueBehemoth
New Member
Not sure where you were going with that statement..
Are you pulling those figures out of a hat or do you have a source for them?
How much of that Toronto Property Tax money is Miller spilling on useless schemes and how much of it is on pork-barrel contracts? How much of it are they giving away to support minority special interest groups? How much of it is going to support the 905'ers use of Metro Services like the Transit and the roads?
And as for Market Value Assessment - how about a penalty tax for all the a******s who buy tear-downs, do a quick cosmetic reno and filp the properties for a huge profit thereby driving the market values higher? It's not my fault that I bought a small house at a reasonable price that I could well afford 8 years ago (under $200K) and now everything in my neighbourhood has more than doubled in value to the point where if I were trying to buy the house I currently live in I couldn't possibly afford it. If my property taxes keep going up based on unrealized income (the market value of my house) I may not be able to afford to keep my home. How the hell is THAT fair?
All things considered, I think I'd rather have Hazel the battle-axe running the show in the GTA. At least she'd kick some butt down at City Hall and whip them into shape.
BlueBehemoth
New Member
I'll pass your comment along to all my friends who work with him down at City Hall and have formed their opinions through close daily contact.
junctionist
Senior Member
Thanks for the clarification, and I agree. Setting aside money and having a Transit City type vision with both LRT and logical subways like the DRL would be a good move. One can't help but think how much different the situation would be if the elected leader actually had greater aspirations to build subways.
Glen
Senior Member
Simply saying that property tax in Toronto has nothing to do with property tax anywhere else. It is strictly based on Toronto's spending. Furthermore, the role of density in making Toronto tax burden seemingly smaller is a red herring. Most expenses that the city incurs do not scale much with increased density.
Toronto data
Mississauga data
Provincial list
As a point of reference, more 416ers work in the 905 than the opposite.
The fact is that your taxes have not kept pace with the increases in city spending. If fairness is what you are after, voluntarily pay the actual cost the city incurs on your behalf.
BlueBehemoth
New Member
Then the City is definitely mismanaging their budget. Two people together are always able to live more cheaply than one alone.
For the edification of the other readers, I took the time to go through the Budget links Glen provided and do the math.
Something is definitely rotten here. It may have to do with the downloading of costs by the Province to the Municipalities and the disproportionate number of homeless, refugees, welfare-recipients and low-income people in the GTA. Perhaps we should pull a Mel Lastman here and just bus them all to other Municipalities? Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
Again, where are you getting this from? The traffic jams on the DVP and every other artery heading into the City each morning and the GO train commuters through Union Station into the downtown core clearly indicates otherwise.
Then Metro's spending is WAY out of control (see the table above). Miller needs to be put on a much shorter leash instead of being given more power.
Glen
Senior Member
BlueBehemoth,
I think you might have to add the "upper tier" portions to the 905 municipalities. For example, for Mississauga you need to add the tax and spending from Peel region (proportional to Mississauga's share). Cool chart though, Thanks.
The traffic information comes from here (page 12).
There is also the Cordon Count.
I think you might have to add the "upper tier" portions to the 905 municipalities. For example, for Mississauga you need to add the tax and spending from Peel region (proportional to Mississauga's share). Cool chart though, Thanks.
The traffic information comes from here (page 12).
There is also the Cordon Count.
BlueBehemoth
New Member
I think you might be misinterpreting that data there Glen.
The way I read it is -
- Since 2002, more jobs have been created in or moved to the 905 area from either Toronto or the rest of the Province as opposed being created in or moved to the City of Toronto.
- As of the time of the writing of that report (Oct, 2005) there were more jobs in total in the 905 area than there are in the City of Toronto. (Since the 905 is a much larger physical area than the City of Toronto that would be logical.)
- As of 2001, there were more City of Toronto residents commuting to jobs in Vaughan than there were City of Vaughan residents commuting to jobs in Toronto. (That says nothing about the total number of City of Toronto residents commuting to jobs in the 905 or the total number of 905 residents commuting to the City of Toronto for work.)
The Bar graph they included after the statement you referenced on page 12 is only comparing changes (decreases/increases) to total employment numbers in the 905 vs. Toronto for 1990-2004 and not the aggregate total number of jobs for each. (Paraphrased from the paragraph above the one you quoted: As of 2004 the 905 has added 800,000 jobs and Toronto has lost 100,000)
Since the stated purpose of the report you referenced is to make it clear to Toronto City Council that Commercial & Industrial Property Taxes in the City of Toronto are too high and that single issue is driving business and industry to move out of the GTA to the 905 or elsewhere - The writer's theory to resolve that perceived issue is to raise residential taxes in the City of Toronto and to pretty much flatline the Commercial & Industrial taxes.
What the witer of that report has failed to grasp is that, most people who work in the GTA also LIVE here.
If companies that are in the GTA who are already unhappy with their Commercial & Industrial tax burden suddenly have all of their employees being outraged at their increasing residential taxes then that will be EVEN MORE encouragement for those companies to flee the GTA. It's typical bureaucratic tunnel vision - they can't see the forest because all the trees are in the way.
The problem isn't Companies leaving the GTA because the taxes are too high - it's Taxes are too high because the City's spending is out of control. Keep in mind that the writer of that document is a City employee and the City's agenda will always be to defend its own financial position.
I don't know what "the Cordon Count" is but if you supply a link I'd be happy to take a look.
By the way - the Municipal expenditures for the City of Vaughan (which I left off the table in the previous message) are $3,230 Per Household or $921 Per Person.
This still tends to support my opinion that Metro Toronto's claimed spending of $8,291 per household or $3,244 per person per year is way out of line when compared to all of the surrounding municipalities. There is no reasonable way the City can justify these numbers. And cutting out the City Council's golf club memberships is not going to make it all better.
BlueBehemoth
New Member
Glen - I just checked out your blog southofsteeles..
Comparing the average $400K Richmond Hill home to the average $400K downtown Toronto home is like comparing a 1 1/2 car garage to a very old beaten up cardboard box.
It would be more appropriate to do the calculations based on square footage of the structures in question and factor in the size of the lots.
The local realtors tell me my house is worth well over $400K but it's only 1,700 sq ft and the lot is 17' by 95' (with no garage) -- I'd take a $400K house in Richmond Hill or Oshawa over mine any day except that I can't stand the thought of the commute to work. (I've always had a firm rule that I will not spend more than 1 hour a day travelling to and from work altogether regardless of the time of year.)
I think the views you are expressing in your blog, though interesting, are quite misguided.
Comparing the average $400K Richmond Hill home to the average $400K downtown Toronto home is like comparing a 1 1/2 car garage to a very old beaten up cardboard box.
It would be more appropriate to do the calculations based on square footage of the structures in question and factor in the size of the lots.
The local realtors tell me my house is worth well over $400K but it's only 1,700 sq ft and the lot is 17' by 95' (with no garage) -- I'd take a $400K house in Richmond Hill or Oshawa over mine any day except that I can't stand the thought of the commute to work. (I've always had a firm rule that I will not spend more than 1 hour a day travelling to and from work altogether regardless of the time of year.)
I think the views you are expressing in your blog, though interesting, are quite misguided.
Glen
Senior Member
BlueBehemoth,
More people from Toronto work in the 905 than vice versa. As the quote from the report says. Since the time of the report, the disparity has increased. In fact, the job growth that occurred in the 905 region was to such a degree that its population growth could not support it.
The report is not about companies leaving the GTA. It is about within the GTA, Toronto is not competitive. It has been at best stagnant while surrounded by a booming area.
Again this is not reflective of reality. As above, this is not about the GTA as a homogeneous tax climate. This is about the GTA as a heterogeneous one. Toronto's non residential taxes are far to high while residential taxes are too low. Businesses have left or ignored the Toronto part of the GTA but not the GTA itself. Despite higher residential taxes the 905 has flourished, while Toronto has not.
More people from Toronto work in the 905 than vice versa. As the quote from the report says. Since the time of the report, the disparity has increased. In fact, the job growth that occurred in the 905 region was to such a degree that its population growth could not support it.
The report is not about companies leaving the GTA. It is about within the GTA, Toronto is not competitive. It has been at best stagnant while surrounded by a booming area.
Again this is not reflective of reality. As above, this is not about the GTA as a homogeneous tax climate. This is about the GTA as a heterogeneous one. Toronto's non residential taxes are far to high while residential taxes are too low. Businesses have left or ignored the Toronto part of the GTA but not the GTA itself. Despite higher residential taxes the 905 has flourished, while Toronto has not.
Glen
Senior Member
And I say again, when municipal expenses become directly or even significantly related to lot size they should scale as such. The truth is that the are only marginally related. Have a look at the FIR data again and you will see that, using Mississauga as a comparison, Toronto has no efficiencies afforded by density. I quickly compared per household police and fire expenses and they are practically equal. The only thing that is not not equal is the amount paid for them.
So I will say again property tax should represent an equitable portion of municipal (yours) expenditure on your behalf. What Torontonians pay has as much to do with what those in Mississauga pay as to those in Calgary.