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Manley wants to hand power over to US

Re: Manley is an idiot

Umm...I don't see how Manley's opinions would really reflect on the Liberals: he was all but kicked out of the party. I never really thought much of him as a leader since he's so wildly pro-American.

Remember, though, that even the most moderate Conservative would make Manley look like a rabid nationalist.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

.... You mean Paul Martin?
Oh... big "C" vs small "c". Martin is a small - not big- "c" conservative.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

Yes, Are Be. That's why I used the big C. Because Paul Martin does not make Manley look like a rabid nationalist. Manley is far more pro-American than Martin. Is that clear to you now?
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

It can be hard to tell Liberals and Conservatives apart, with Martin being such a Tory. :) :tup:
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

With the ethical standards of a Tory as well...:rollin

GB
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

roch:

I think that's the problem - our whole economic system is geared not for "excellence" per se, but massed exports to the US. It makes for a situation where our economy becomes overly dependent on the whims of the latter - which is not a good thing. Besides, NAFTA is supposed to provide "greater integration", and yet it has never prevented various trade conflicts with the US like softwood lumber or grain - what assurances do you think that we have such circumstances won't arise again, given the need to score political brownie points?

re: opinions

Actually I believe there is - even New Englanders as a whole, being relatively liberal in the US scheme of things, are still far more conservative than Canadians.

GB
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

"Ganj: Do you think that S.Ont are more similar to that of B.C. or Albertians vs Chicago & NY? What binds us together, distances?, politics?, in my opinion, its just media."

I'm not sure what you mean by "just media". But to answer your question, in general, I think Canadians and Americans have a different philosophy on life and a different world view. Sure we have a lot of cultural similarities, especially with the NE USA, but the differences do exist. IMO, when I talk to Vancouverites and Montrealers, I still feel like I'm talking to a Canadian with a Canadian view of things. Even though NYC and Boston are geographically closer to Southern Ontario, I think you would find that wrt attitudes towards various issues (social policy, foreign policy, economic policy), we would have more in common with Vancouver which is thousands of kms away. Sure there are regional differences... they exist everywhere... but you don't see folks in liberal Vermont wanting to join Canada just because of the conservative south. Even in conservative Alberta, the majority prefer Canadian policies to American ones.

So back to the topic of this thread... remove whatever trade barriers you want but say no to political integration.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

^ I don't agree with, just like you, the removal of political barriers as well.

But right now I am an audit manager in the Caymans, and we receive audit seniors from all over Canada (primarily cause its tax free). I find it is harder to relate to Vancouverites and Albertans vs. people from DC, NY, etc.,. From what I've seen, people usually form their own social groups/friends based upon it seems regional differences. Could be wrong though.

In terms of media, I believe it is very brainwashing. Watching US sateliete tv for the last couple years, makes me feel that I've been brainwashed by CNN. My views are becoming more 'american' if there is such a thing, way more so than before I left for Grand Cayman. Thats why I think that media plays a very important role, especially in explaining differences for example, in culture, public opinion, etc, which helps set people/socio groups apart from each other.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

Why do you think it is so difficult for people to define what to be Canadian is.... The typical response when they answer (usually assuming a subcontext to it is what makes you different than Americans) is "not american". It is because they have a hard time finding any single item that differentiates Canadians from Americans. When working in the office in Chicago (Computer consulting).... if I had not known I was in Chicago, I would realize that a majority of people were American.

It is not the border that defines who we are, people relatively close each other on the map are more likely to be closer to each other personally and politically. There is a constant attempt to socially engineer Canadians to be different than the US. But at the end of it all, all most Canadians can say is that we are not American.

All Mr. Manley has done is to recognize that we are economically close the US and try to streamline the ability to work and do business without worry about the border. Some here would prefer to build another "Berlin Wall" where if you try to cross over to the other side you are arrested and thrown in jail for un-Canadian behaviour.... but I am not afraid of the United States.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

I totally disagree. The real fallacy is that Canadians are just Americans that say "eh".

The two countries were founded on totally different principles, and their societies have demonstrated this difference since then up to and including today.

The USA is more of a European-style colonial power, a nation-state in the more 19th century meaning of the term.

Canada is something a bit more unique. It is built on an agreement between three founding minorities: the natives, the francophones, and the anglophones. Anglophones form the majority, you say? Not really. Given the American juggernaut, english Canadians are more like a minority, culturally, and act accordingly. While this founding agreement has been broken from time to time in the history of this country (most notably in the case of the natives), it has more or less held. The structure of this agreement, as an agreement between minorities, made it easy and even logical for further minorities to be joined to the mixture without the need for cultural domination. This is partially why Canada has had such success with multiculturalism.

The fact that Canada has survived as long as it has demonstrates that the essence of Canada works. Recent attempts to undermine that reality are mainly political ploys by business groups to encourage integration with the United States for short-term gain. In the long-run, it probably is against the interest of the Canadian business community to integrate heavily with the USA and force a north-south flow of trade. We only limit our potential as a trading nation by doing so, while allowing our corporate sector to be hollowed out by American buyers.

Do we really want to be a branch plant economy?
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

I would argue now that Ontario's economy right now resembles that of a modern day branch plant economy, which we now like to call globalization.

Think of the major manufactorers in Ontario, or the large financial institutions that we work for. Other than the big banks, most major institions I think of are non-CDN. With tarrifs, its called branch plant economy, without tarrifs its called globalization.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

>I totally disagree. The real fallacy is that Canadians are just Americans that say "eh".

The problem here is that you are generalizing - "Americans" "Canadians". Neither country is one homogenious entity -- a fact often forgotten by the federal government. A Canadian from Toronto is different than a Canadian from Calgary. An American from Maine is different than one from Texas. If you were to ask a Canadian to define themselves (and they had no idea that America exists -- so there answer is not biased from trying to be different), the answer would be very much the same as the average american in the same region.

>The two countries were founded on totally different principles, and their societies have demonstrated this difference since then up to and including today.

Hmmmm..... we altered our National Anthym.... ideas that came originally from the US.

We now have a Charter of Rights, based on the american bill of rights...

Our concept of seperation of church and state comes from the United States (unlike when I was younger and had to say the lords prayer in school)

>Canada is something a bit more unique. It is built on an agreement between three founding minorities: the natives, the francophones, and the anglophones. Anglophones form the majority, you say? Not really. Given the American juggernaut, english Canadians are more like a minority, culturally, and act accordingly. While this founding agreement has been broken from time to time in the history of this country (most notably in the case of the natives), it has more or less held. The structure of this agreement, as an agreement between minorities, made it easy and even logical for further minorities to be joined to the mixture without the need for cultural domination. This is partially why Canada has had such success with multiculturalism.

Three founding minorities, that is complete BS. Native reserves exist now BECAUSE racism in the past prevented those societies from integrating in with the rest. And the anglophones v francophones.... well for the last 30 years at least the Liberal governments that have dominated have kept Quebec in Canada by instilling fear in them.... constantly using fear during referendums to "convince" them to vote against sovereignty.... an utter failure (long-term) because the other side sells them a vision, and Canada sells them fear.

>The fact that Canada has survived as long as it has demonstrates that the essence of Canada works. Recent attempts to undermine that reality are mainly political ploys by business groups to encourage integration with the United States for short-term gain. In the long-run, it probably is against the interest of the Canadian business community to integrate heavily with the USA and force a north-south flow of trade. We only limit our potential as a trading nation by doing so, while allowing our corporate sector to be hollowed out by American buyers.

North-South trade is more natural BECAUSE of distance. Most of the Canadian population is within a short distance of the border, while the distance from east to west is considerable. Markets to the south are closer, and distance matters in a number of industries.

>Do we really want to be a branch plant economy?

We are not a branch plant economy.... we are effectively one market divided by a line in the sand.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

"Hmmmm..... we altered our National Anthym.... ideas that came originally from the US.

We now have a Charter of Rights, based on the american bill of rights...

Our concept of seperation of church and state comes from the United States (unlike when I was younger and had to say the lords prayer in school)"

Those are all rather superficial details. Many countries have these sorts of things. France, for instance, is arguably a better example of separation of church and state.

"Three founding minorities, that is complete BS. Native reserves exist now BECAUSE racism in the past prevented those societies from integrating in with the rest. And the anglophones v francophones.... well for the last 30 years at least the Liberal governments that have dominated have kept Quebec in Canada by instilling fear in them.... constantly using fear during referendums to "convince" them to vote against sovereignty.... an utter failure (long-term) because the other side sells them a vision, and Canada sells them fear."

Yes, what was done to Natives was unfortunate. However, you are ignoring the centuries of cooperation between the Natives and europeans since Quebec was first settled and continuing until the early 1800s when many racist policies were instituted.

Quebec has stayed despite the federal government's attempts to 'instill fear', not because of them.

"North-South trade is more natural BECAUSE of distance. Most of the Canadian population is within a short distance of the border, while the distance from east to west is considerable. Markets to the south are closer, and distance matters in a number of industries."

The main flow of trade in North American is East-West, and has been for centuries. Analyse things a bit... while there is lateral trade, trade is predominantly east-west. The north-south trade argument was invented as justification for decreasing Canadian sovereignty.

"We are not a branch plant economy.... we are effectively one market divided by a line in the sand."

Is that all, eh? What happens when we erase that line? Do you think that Canada wouldn't be an economic colony? It already is, in many respects. American shareholders control nearly 30% of corporate profits in Canada. If we relaxed our foreign ownership regulations (which are still quite stringent), you can watch that figure jump significantly.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

>Those are all rather superficial details. Many countries have these sorts of things. France, for instance, is arguably a better example of separation of church and state.

So our similarities are superficial, but our differences are not? That is based on what you want to be, not what is.

>Yes, what was done to Natives was unfortunate. However, you are ignoring the centuries of cooperation between the Natives and europeans since Quebec was first settled and continuing until the early 1800s when many racist policies were instituted.

The co-operation was because of necessity rather than we were such good neighbours. Once the non-natives were sufficiently in a dominant position, this co-operation ceased. We no longer needed to buy there service for trinkets, we were able just to take what we wanted.

>Quebec has stayed despite the federal government's attempts to 'instill fear', not because of them.

Polls done just prior to each of the referendum show a higher percentage for vs against than the actual voting done that day. Although this is not proof, it is a good indicator that the scare tactics work to a certain extent.... but each referendum will gets closer to the end result of Quebec voting for seperation (inbetween ebbs).... "the fear" that produces this result eventually fades over time.... and it has not been replaced with a vision being sold to them.

>The main flow of trade in North American is East-West, and has been for centuries. Analyse things a bit... while there is lateral trade, trade is predominantly east-west. The north-south trade argument was invented as justification for decreasing Canadian sovereignty.

The flow of trade was restricted by those that have been successful in chocking off north-south trade in the past.

>Is that all, eh? What happens when we erase that line? Do you think that Canada wouldn't be an economic colony? It already is, in many respects. American shareholders control nearly 30% of corporate profits in Canada. If we relaxed our foreign ownership regulations (which are still quite stringent), you can watch that figure jump significantly.

When you erase that line (artificially restricting trade), trade goes up... people move back and forth... differences fade. Canadians will own 10% of the entire pie (based on economic size). Up until 50 years ago it was significantly easier to move back and forth across the border, then it became more difficult to do that than movement from Canada - Europe or USA - Europe. I was born Canadian, I will die Canadian ... because that is how I see myself ... not because I am different from americans... That would not change even if politically we became one country.
 
Re: Manley is an idiot

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:rollin

why not have a picture of the universe and put an american flag on it, if only universe had a picture...
 
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