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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

Is it possible for some people on here to make their case without slagging Keesmaat like she's some sort of supervillain? She's just one person and there are many people involved in choosing the recommended DRL route. Just because you don't agree with it that doesn't mean there's something fishy going on.

I'd like to know what's going on with this too. As in concrete plans. Granted I think it'll be much more difficult than a simple conversion, considering the nature of the street and businesses along it. This is the heart of the financial district - the largest in the nation and 4th(?) largest on the continent. Keesmaat comparing it to smaller CBDs like Melbourne isn't very apt imo.
I don't see anything wrong with comparing ourselves to Melbourne. It's not like it's a small city, it has several million people and a bigger streetcar network than Toronto. For bigger cities with streetcar systems in dense areas, consider Tokyo, Hong Kong, Osaka, Milan, Moscow, and St. Petersburg.

And while I have no doubt that closing King to cars would improve the line, of course it won't solve all our problems. It will still be quite a bit slower than a subway and it will do nothing for Line 1 crowding...which is the main reason that the DRL is finally on the front burner. I can't see it having any impact on the case for a new subway downtown, which can relieve Line 1 and provide the reliable east-west travel that the downtown core needs.
 
I think that the King route is much better than the Queen route because the King streetcar is busier and has more development around it. Almost all new condos east and west of downtown (except for the Regent Park redevelopment) are south of Queen St.

Closing roads to all traffic but streetcars is a band aid solution that is completely pointless. Is Keesmaat's decision to support a DRL on Queen related to this King closure proposal?

It will NOT be King. Get over that already.
 
Getting over things is a major problem on Urban Toronto ;)

Some of you can't get over the fact that a Scarborough Subway and not a Scarborough LRT will be built.

The longer we go the more I expect to end up with BRT for a decade (or more). Even the rebuilt SRT isn't last very long.
 
I was driving along King St. late last week.
And was thinking.... how great it could be if King St. was Transit (Far Lane) and Bikes only (Curb Lane) - and that Richmond and Adelaide returned to all car lanes.
thoughts?
 
I don't see anything wrong with comparing ourselves to Melbourne. It's not like it's a small city, it has several million people and a bigger streetcar network than Toronto. For bigger cities with streetcar systems in dense areas, consider Tokyo, Hong Kong, Osaka, Milan, Moscow, and St. Petersburg.

And while I have no doubt that closing King to cars would improve the line, of course it won't solve all our problems. It will still be quite a bit slower than a subway and it will do nothing for Line 1 crowding...which is the main reason that the DRL is finally on the front burner. I can't see it having any impact on the case for a new subway downtown, which can relieve Line 1 and provide the reliable east-west travel that the downtown core needs.

To start I'm just going to make it clear on a few things so no one thinks I'm spouting Nayshunal rhetoric, or that I'm against the general idea of a King transit mall. I'm a huge supporter of streetcars, LRT, and pedestrian zones; and would love for TO and the GTHA to have dozens of these.

Tokyo, Hong Kong, Osaka, Milan, Moscow, St Petersburgh... although I'm not really knowledgable with them, and don't at all doubt that they have extensive surface tram systems operating through each of their respective CBDs, I'd wager that each also has several grade-separated rapid transit lines passing through their core areas. Whether it's a heavy rail subway, or a Eg Crosstown-style premetro/stadtbahn (where a tram is tunneled beneath the central part of the city), or a combo of such systems - I don't think it's a safe comparison to TO's CBD. We have ONE such line through ours (Line 1), with every other line throttled from being stuck on the surface. Even North York Centre has more (Lines 1 and 4), and soon Yonge-Eglinton Centre (Lines 1 and 5). I really can't think of any major city (Alpha and upwards) that has relegated their downtown to such backwardness as building only one line through their CBD.

Yes the DRL thankfully got bumped up in the Big Move from the 25yr to the 15yr plan. But unfortunately the supposed '15-yr' plan has been stretched out to +25yrs, and what's being highlighted now is not what was proposed during the Miller era. The original DRL to be built post-TC was to be a route that was one part Yonge 'relief', but 100% a subway across the south end of Old TO, through the CBD, from Pape to Dundas West, and in operation by ~2031. The plan has now been downgraded considerably - with the portion west of Osgoode dropped from the OP and RTP indefinitely, and the abridged Pape-Osgoode section to be in operation by ~2035.

Almost a quarter century before the Big Move we had the 1985 DRT/DRL plan. This was also a means of Yonge Relief, but more to the point it was the #1 shortlisted solution in a cohesive plan aimed at tackling transit within/across downtown and Old Toronto. How? By creating a grade-separated rapid transit line across the south end of the city. Every option but this one solution was soundly rejected as insufficient (yes, even surface streetcar improvements). This is somewhat surprising in retrospect, considering that Old TO was projected to see minimal growth - with the majority supposedly to occur in the boroughs' "Centres".

Prior to that there were a significant number of plans spanning many decades that all led to the same answer: any crosstown rapid transit route needs to be grade-separated (tunneled/trenched) across the south end of the city. This wasn't one or two ideas, but a long series of separate studies undertaken between the 1910s-1980s. The ghost Lower Queen from the early 50s should serve as testimony to this long-standing conclusion. Considering traffic + development has grown above/beyond what anyone in the 1900s could've ever imagined, I think it's pretty obvious the same conclusions spanning a century would be the same conclusion today (arguably moreso): That is: we have to create a grade-separated line through the core and across the south end of the city.

Again, I'm all in favour of improving the 504's speed/reliability/capacity/frequency. Not to mention closing roads to cars and creating pedestrian malls. But unless we decide to holistically plan the King transit mall in tandem with the complete Miller-era DRL - and I guess tunnel the 504 for ~2km through the core, convert to 2 or 3-car consists, and LRTize the portions to Dundas West and Broadview stations - I think it's clear that any net gain in 504 service will be overrun on its first day. The current demand, latent demand, and growing demand will swamp it otherwise.

There's another thing that seems fairly apparent: money, resources, manpower are all finite. So unless this King transit mall is financed by donations specific to the project, planned/engineered by volunteers, and constructed pro bono - I think it's safe to say that it will by default divert money, resources, manpower, and attention from pre-existing projects. It might be a little or it might be a lot - we don't know at this point. But the TTC and Planning dept is only so large. However what we do know (and was stressed at the Relief Line meetings) is that the DRL needs all the funds and support it can get.

So until I see a thorough EA for a DRL stretching all the way to at least Dufferin (that's funded and near shovel-ready), I think we should tread lightly when it comes to focusing attention toward new ideas that serve the same/adjacent corridor as the DRL. One hundred years of studies all pointed to the same conclusion - and a transit mall wasn't one of them. Nor was SmartTrack and new GO stations for that matter. The core of the city is in the mess it's in for no other reason than delaying, not building, underbuilding, politicization, and tackling new ideas (instead of building something deduced numerous times over the last century).
 
To break another orthodoxy - at some point I think we have to reconsider the role of at least some service streetcar routes. The street condition is just getting too unpredictable for them to operate efficiently at a high frequency.

AoD
 
To break another orthodoxy - at some point I think we have to reconsider the role of at least some service streetcar routes. The street condition is just getting too unpredictable for them to operate efficiently at a high frequency.

AoD

Agreed. That's why it's so bloody imperative to have the DRL extended westward as far as it can go in its first phase. Once that's been studied, approved, and funded - then we can tackle quick interim solutions to fix the situation for the 10-15yrs until the line is in operation. Because let's face it, even with the complete DRL we need to LRTize the 504, 505, 506.
 
To start I'm just going to make it clear on a few things so no one thinks I'm spouting Nayshunal rhetoric, or that I'm against the general idea of a King transit mall. I'm a huge supporter of streetcars, LRT, and pedestrian zones; and would love for TO and the GTHA to have dozens of these.

Tokyo, Hong Kong, Osaka, Milan, Moscow, St Petersburgh... although I'm not really knowledgable with them, and don't at all doubt that they have extensive surface tram systems operating through each of their respective CBDs, I'd wager that each also has several grade-separated rapid transit lines passing through their core areas. Whether it's a heavy rail subway, or a Eg Crosstown-style premetro/stadtbahn (where a tram is tunneled beneath the central part of the city), or a combo of such systems - I don't think it's a safe comparison to TO's CBD. We have ONE such line through ours (Line 1), with every other line throttled from being stuck on the surface. Even North York Centre has more (Lines 1 and 4), and soon Yonge-Eglinton Centre (Lines 1 and 5). I really can't think of any major city (Alpha and upwards) that has relegated their downtown to such backwardness as building only one line through their CBD.

Yes the DRL thankfully got bumped up in the Big Move from the 25yr to the 15yr plan. But unfortunately the supposed '15-yr' plan has been stretched out to +25yrs, and what's being highlighted now is not what was proposed during the Miller era. The original DRL to be built post-TC was to be a route that was one part Yonge 'relief', but 100% a subway across the south end of Old TO, through the CBD, from Pape to Dundas West, and in operation by ~2031. The plan has now been downgraded considerably - with the portion west of Osgoode dropped from the OP and RTP indefinitely, and the abridged Pape-Osgoode section to be in operation by ~2035.

Almost a quarter century before the Big Move we had the 1985 DRT/DRL plan. This was also a means of Yonge Relief, but more to the point it was the #1 shortlisted solution in a cohesive plan aimed at tackling transit within/across downtown and Old Toronto. How? By creating a grade-separated rapid transit line across the south end of the city. Every option but this one solution was soundly rejected as insufficient (yes, even surface streetcar improvements). This is somewhat surprising in retrospect, considering that Old TO was projected to see minimal growth - with the majority supposedly to occur in the boroughs' "Centres".

Prior to that there were a significant number of plans spanning many decades that all led to the same answer: any crosstown rapid transit route needs to be grade-separated (tunneled/trenched) across the south end of the city. This wasn't one or two ideas, but a long series of separate studies undertaken between the 1910s-1980s. The ghost Lower Queen from the early 50s should serve as testimony to this long-standing conclusion. Considering traffic + development has grown above/beyond what anyone in the 1900s could've ever imagined, I think it's pretty obvious the same conclusions spanning a century would be the same conclusion today (arguably moreso): That is: we have to create a grade-separated line through the core and across the south end of the city.

Again, I'm all in favour of improving the 504's speed/reliability/capacity/frequency. Not to mention closing roads to cars and creating pedestrian malls. But unless we decide to holistically plan the King transit mall in tandem with the complete Miller-era DRL - and I guess tunnel the 504 for ~2km through the core, convert to 2 or 3-car consists, and LRTize the portions to Dundas West and Broadview stations - I think it's clear that any net gain in 504 service will be overrun on its first day. The current demand, latent demand, and growing demand will swamp it otherwise.

There's another thing that seems fairly apparent: money, resources, manpower are all finite. So unless this King transit mall is financed by donations specific to the project, planned/engineered by volunteers, and constructed pro bono - I think it's safe to say that it will by default divert money, resources, manpower, and attention from pre-existing projects. It might be a little or it might be a lot - we don't know at this point. But the TTC and Planning dept is only so large. However what we do know (and was stressed at the Relief Line meetings) is that the DRL needs all the funds and support it can get.

So until I see a thorough EA for a DRL stretching all the way to at least Dufferin (that's funded and near shovel-ready), I think we should tread lightly when it comes to focusing attention toward new ideas that serve the same/adjacent corridor as the DRL. One hundred years of studies all pointed to the same conclusion - and a transit mall wasn't one of them. Nor was SmartTrack and new GO stations for that matter. The core of the city is in the mess it's in for no other reason than delaying, not building, underbuilding, politicization, and tackling new ideas (instead of building something deduced numerous times over the last century).
I agree with most of what you're saying. Downtown is growing at an astounding pace, faster than anyone could have predicted when they were studying previous versions of the relief line, and even faster than when the last time the King Street transit mall was seriously discussed a decade or so ago. And it's not only condos either - downtown now has 509,000 jobs, an increase of 5% last year alone. And I recognize that a transit mall on King Street is a stopgap at best, and even as a stopgap its effectiveness will be limited.

But here's the thing - the relief line won't be open for the better part of two decades. Downtown needs relief in any form it can get now. Trying to divert the cost of the King streetcar ROW to the subway just means that we'd end up with no improvements at all for decades. Closing King Street off to traffic would probably cost in the tens of millions of dollars - chump change compared to the cost of a subway. That extra money would add next to nothing to the subway and would definitely not be enough to extend it by another station.

Even the relief subway line won't be enough to relieve the downtown transportation network. More and more people are coming downtown from distant suburbs, which means that RER is necessary. RER isn't just for the suburbs either; it will serve parts of central Toronto that the DRL won't. One line simply can't serve all the underserved parts of the downtown area no matter which route it takes.

You're saying that cities like Moscow and Hong Kong have extensive rapid networks but at the same time you seem to be arguing against building the same in Toronto. Rapid transit downtown is more than just the DRL, it's RER too and even improving surface routes can help. The DRL, King streetcar right of way and RER would have a similar complementary relationship as the various transit modes in other cities. We need all of them. Arguing against one project in the hopes that the money will go towards another will just end up hurting both.

I'd even argue that we should build a streetcar tunnel on College/Carlton. After the DRL is built College Street will the the farthest point from a rapid transit line downtown. It would allow easy travel across the middle part of downtown and link up nicely with the Pape-Gerrard subway/RER station.
 
I agree with most of what you're saying. Downtown is growing at an astounding pace, faster than anyone could have predicted when they were studying previous versions of the relief line, and even faster than when the last time the King Street transit mall was seriously discussed a decade or so ago. And it's not only condos either - downtown now has 509,000 jobs, an increase of 5% last year alone. And I recognize that a transit mall on King Street is a stopgap at best, and even as a stopgap its effectiveness will be limited.

But here's the thing - the relief line won't be open for the better part of two decades. Downtown needs relief in any form it can get now. Trying to divert the cost of the King streetcar ROW to the subway just means that we'd end up with no improvements at all for decades. Closing King Street off to traffic would probably cost in the tens of millions of dollars - chump change compared to the cost of a subway. That extra money would add next to nothing to the subway and would definitely not be enough to extend it by another station.

Why isn't Queen St being considered for conversion to a transit mall?? Isn't it the street that's closest to all of the destinations and jobs downtown and serves everybody the best? A subway isn't going to be built for 20 years don't people need something now?
 

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