King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[TheTigerMaster]

‘It’s actually kind of embarrassing’: Once praised, the King Street transit project seems to have gone off the rails​

The City seems to think that “temporary” means that it never needs to be maintained.

Isn't this scheduled to be addressed in 2023?

Might be pushed to 2024.

Some members here suggest that it might be pushed back to accommodate the Ontario Line construction, and I tend to agree with them. Is there time to get the King Street upgrades complete, before the real heavy impacts of Ontario Line construction begins?

But on there other hand, perhaps the construction can be staged in such a way that there aren't any roadway closures, making these concerns irrelevant.

Also, I'm a bit surprised the public consultation process hasn't begun, if 2023/2024 is indeed when the City is planning to implement this project.

 

[TRONto]

Some members here suggest that it might be pushed back to accommodate the Ontario Line construction, and I tend to agree with them. Is there time to get the King Street upgrades complete, before the real heavy impacts of Ontario Line construction begins?

But on there other hand, perhaps the construction can be staged in such a way that there aren't any roadway closures, making these concerns irrelevant.

Also, I'm a bit surprised the public consultation process hasn't begun, if 2023/2024 is indeed when the City is planning to implement this projeIct

King st upgrades are a shorter project so I hope they don't wait on the OL to complete it. Traffic downtown is horrendous and the OL construction will make it worse for a decade so hey... just finish the King St upgrades. Not like people can drive there now.

 

[DSC]

Might be pushed to 2024.

It is NOT scheduled for 2023 on TOInView. The 2024 projects will be posted in late December, if they follow their usual schedule.

 

[nfitz]

Might be pushed to 2024.

I don't see how it happens until after Queen reopens - around 2027. I don't think the track is in that bad shape, that it can't wait.

 

[Bordercollie]

I don't see how it happens until after Queen reopens - around 2027. I don't think the track is in that bad shape, that it can't wait.

Couldn't transit priority signalling make the trip faster? The streetcars already have GPS trackers. Can't you take that data and co-ordinate signals?

 

[Jonny5]

Couldn't transit priority signalling make the trip faster? The streetcars already have GPS trackers. Can't you take that data and co-ordinate signals?

You need a major IT investment to build a usable and actionable information bridge from the TTC to the traffic signals to do that. I would guess it would cost tens of millions of dollars of both hardware and software to accomplish it, and at best it would only catch a streetcar appraoching about 50% of the time because of the latency of the transmission and the time to change the signals. There's cheaper ways to do that without GPS, but they have the same result. The variance of speed and stop times of the streetcars is way too high. You can't get around that problem downtown.

 

[Bordercollie]

You need a major IT investment to build a usable and actionable information bridge from the TTC to the traffic signals to do that. I would guess it would cost tens of millions of dollars of both hardware and software to accomplish it, and at best it would only catch a streetcar appraoching about 50% of the time because of the latency of the transmission and the time to change the signals. There's cheaper ways to do that without GPS, but they have the same result. The variance of speed and stop times of the streetcars is way too high. You can't get around that problem downtown.

In the old days (90's) buses had beacons that would alert the traffic signal, giving the bus priority.

You could likely do it with cameras and software to identify streetcars and to make the light turn green or hold green until the train clears.

 

[nfitz]

Couldn't transit priority signalling make the trip faster? The streetcars already have GPS trackers. Can't you take that data and co-ordinate signals?

I'm just referring to the replacing the tracks, sidewalks, and pavement. They could tweak the signage, etc. And drop some more planters where cars shouldn't be driving.

In the old days (90's) buses had beacons that would alert the traffic signal, giving the bus priority.

Both the streetcars and buses have beacons to hold the light green longer, at quite a few downtown intersection.

 

[Bordercollie]

I'm just referring to the replacing the tracks, sidewalks, and pavement. They could tweak the signage, etc. And drop some more planters where cars shouldn't be driving.

Both the streetcars and buses have beacons to hold the light green longer, at quite a few downtown intersection.

I don't see that working...

 

[nfitz]

I don't see that working...

It's been working well at many locations for years ... and I silently curse while I wait even longer to cross the road, even though it's clearly sensible.

It wouldn't work for traffic lights before the stop rather than after. You'd need something quite more sophisticated for that.

 

[reaperexpress]

Tl:dr we have priority at hundreds of intersections but it doesn't work very well, either due to near side stops (downtown) or long red times (ROWs).

Nearly all signals on the streetcar network allow streetcars to extend the light by up to 30 seconds, typically also with a Walk display but sometimes including up to 16 of don't walk (this allows the signal to respond much faster and reduces unnecessary extensions). The problem is that nearly all signals also have nearside streetcar stops which means that the estimated time that the streetcar would like to enter the intersection is usually wrong due to dwell time variability. It the streetcar dwells longer than expected, it may miss the end of the 30 s extension, in which it needs to sit through the entire red - meanwhile if the light hadn't extended the green, that red would already be nearly over by then. If the streetcar takes less time than expected, the system may choose not to extend (to avoid the situation described above) when in fact the streetcar could have made it through within a 30 sec extension.

The issues on ROWs (which usually have far side stops) are different. In that case part of the issue is that there are very long cross street green times due to pedestrian crossing distances, and left turn phases. The solution in those cases is to permit streetcars to insert a short green between the cross street phases and the left turn phases. The system is perfectly capable of doing this, but as far as I'm aware there are only two intersections where transportation services has approved inserted phases to reduce delay for streetcars going straight.

 

[Bordercollie]

Tl:dr we have priority at hundreds of intersections but it doesn't work very well, either due to near side stops (downtown) or long red times (ROWs).

Nearly all signals on the streetcar network allow streetcars to extend the light by up to 30 seconds, typically also with a Walk display but sometimes including up to 16 of don't walk (this allows the signal to respond much faster and reduces unnecessary extensions). The problem is that nearly all signals also have nearside streetcar stops which means that the estimated time that the streetcar would like to enter the intersection is usually wrong due to dwell time variability. It the streetcar dwells longer than expected, it may miss the end of the 30 s extension, in which it needs to sit through the entire red - meanwhile if the light hadn't extended the green, that red would already be nearly over by then. If the streetcar takes less time than expected, the system may choose not to extend (to avoid the situation described above) when in fact the streetcar could have made it through within a 30 sec extension.

The issues on ROWs (which usually have far side stops) are different. In that case part of the issue is that there are very long cross street green times due to pedestrian crossing distances, and left turn phases. The solution in those cases is to permit streetcars to insert a short green between the cross street phases and the left turn phases. The system is perfectly capable of doing this, but as far as I'm aware there are only two intersections where transportation services has approved inserted phases to reduce delay for streetcars going straight.

Again broken communication between departments. Someone needs to be in a position to get all parties in a room and figure out how to solve the problem.

Currently everyone is just in their own bucket not taking to others to make it work.

 

[reaperexpress]

Again broken communication between departments. Someone needs to be in a position to get all parties in a room and figure out how to solve the problem.

Currently everyone is just in their own bucket not taking to others to make it work.

Having formerly been one of said parties I assure you that there is communication between the groups. The problem is that responsibilities aren't necessarily aligned with priorities. There are things the TTC could do to reduce delays to other traffic, and things transportation services could do to reduce delays for the TTC (and both are aware of this). But although both are theoretically in favour of making those changes, there are perpetual staffing shortages on both sides, and those items would never be the top priority. The TTC isn't going to spend scarce staff resources to reduce pedestrian delay, and vice versa.

 

[Jonny5]

One thing I noted today too was how some roads have way too long greens downtown, even on weekends. A 504 I was on caught the red at Sherbourne and I was surprised counting that it appeared to be a 90 second green for Sherbourne. It could be cut to 30 without much fuss, I think. Some other places have too long east-west greens. Parliament gets very backed up at Queen and I've timed it out that Queen has 120 seconds of green time, while Parliement only gets 30 seconds. That's what a big time killer on streetcar diversions there, and the poor Parliament bus can never clear that intersection in one shot if it picks up or lets out even one passenger.

Surely we can adjust signal timings on different days and times of day now, right?

 

[reaperexpress]

One thing I noted today too was how some roads have way too long greens downtown, even on weekends. A 504 I was on caught the red at Sherbourne and I was surprised counting that it appeared to be a 90 second green for Sherbourne. It could be cut to 30 without much fuss, I think. Some other places have too long east-west greens. Parliament gets very backed up at Queen and I've timed it out that Queen has 120 seconds of green time, while Parliement only gets 30 seconds. That's what a big time killer on streetcar diversions there, and the poor Parliament bus can never clear that intersection if it picks up or lets out even one passenger.

Sounds like symptoms of failed streetcar or bus detectors, resulting in priority interventions for non-existent transit vehicles. Normally the signal cycles downtown are about 60-80 seconds, but the cycle length can be increased while prioritizing a TTC vehicle, as well as for up to 2 cycles afterwards to return in sync. Though when returning in sync, the extra time would be divided evenly between the various directions which is not what you're describing. If you see this occuring regularly in the absence of relevant streetcars/buses, let the City know because something's broken.