King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[amnesiajune]

Gotta be careful on this one. As much as I detest the level of driving in this city, it's a reality for many (although thankfully diminishing fast for the younger gens). The reality is that they will not go downtown unless offered something like this.

It's also a one-time credit that helps to promote the Green P app. You don't get two hours to park for free each time you visit. And the "younger gens" thing is pretty thoroughly debunked - young people today aren't any less likely to have a car than they were in the past. People just have more time, more flexibility (i.e. fewer commitments) and less spare money to dump on a car when they're young.

 

[dowlingm]

Again, I repeat "we've got to be careful on this"...from all sides. It's not "on King". It's 'off King'.

Now. It's off King now.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In light of the 25% ridership increase on King, I don't have a ton of deference for the concerns of the businesses that say their somehow losing customers. It appears that more people are using King Steet than ever before, so unless your business is particularly auto-dependent, this pilot should only be benefiting you.

If your business is particularly auto-dependent that fact of the matter is that you'll either need to adapt, or pack up shop and move. It sucks, but we mustn't let our city be held hostage due to the interests of a handful of business owners. Toronto will get its transit priority corridor, businesses that are unable to adapt will be replaced, and Toronto as a whole will be better off for it.

It's also a one-time credit that helps to promote the Green P app

This is a nice gesture to the businesses, and not much else. This won't help them in the long term. Nevertheless, I'm supportive of this action.

 

[syn]

My experience with the route changes has been excellent. It's certainly a faster, more consistent and more enjoyable ride.

It's good to see the city taking some action to help the businesses on King, though I am surprised there's been such a large drop off for a lot of them (or is it just a vocal few?). Could the weather, other construction, etc. have anything to do with it? For restaurants, it's hard to believe so much of their business comes from patrons driving downtown and parking on King.

 

[amnesiajune]

This is a nice gesture to the businesses, and not much else. This won't help them in the long term.

It'll probably help to promote the Green P app, which is something that TPA has been trying to do for a lot of different reasons

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's good to see the city taking some action to help the businesses on King, though I am surprised there's been such a large drop off for a lot of them (or is it just a vocal few?)

Pretty sure its a vocal few. There must be at least a hundred businesses on King, and it seems that the number that have been complaining in the media number less than 5 or 10.

I expect this pilot is particularly harmful for establishments that target weather individuals; the type of individual that must drive, because they wouldn't be caught dead in public transit.

 

[salsa]

The City is caving to businesses and is now offering FREE PARKING for 2 hours in the pilot area. WTF? Isnt that going to defeat the purpose of discouraging car use? Would it not have been better to offer free streetcar during dinner hours?

City Hall logic: "Getting cars out of the way has achieved huge gains in service reliability and ridership. Anyway, let's undercut this by incentivizing more people to drive."

And also...

 

[salsa]

Hey, remember how suburban councillors were upset about the loss of parking revenue from the Bloor bike lanes?

 

[amnesiajune]

Hey, remember how suburban councillors were upset about the loss of parking revenue from the Bloor bike lanes?

This is a really dumb talking point. Even if every person in the city claimed that credit, and they all used it instead of paying for Green P parking (as opposed to using it instead of parking at a privately-owned lot) it would cost them $27 million. That's a third of the profit and taxes that they give to the city.

It'll cost a few million dollars at most.

 

[steveintoronto]

Now. It's off King now.

There's no indication of on-street parking returning unless this project is deemed a total failure.

In light of the 25% ridership increase on King, I don't have a ton of deference for the concerns of the businesses that say their somehow losing customers.

You should. I think some posters are being *far too presumptive* on what defeats and has defeated many transit malls exactly because of this in the past. Why gamble with this when there are answers to be had? The City already has budgeted a pittance to build a palace, and and the first signs of failure are ending up mimicking the US cities where transit malls have killed vibrant streets. Deference to others' concerns is a start to doing so.

This is a nice gesture to the businesses, and not much else. This won't help them in the long term.

Sounds like Ford in reverse. Same whine from the gearbox.

It's good to see the city taking some action to help the businesses on King

It's not only good, it's *essential*. No matter how successful the ridership figures are (and they can be even better with everyone pulling the same direction, and backing this) this could easily run into headwinds that defeat the lift. It's not a case, as some posters are stating, of a few crackpots. It's a general consensus of businesses petitioned, whether they're right or wrong (only sales figures will tell, not yet available) as it will poison the enthusiasm of some in influential circles to push ahead with the needed confidence. Given the right response to a satiated business community, I can see grounds to immediately push to end the pilot phase on this, and start planning it right: Permanent. But it takes all parties save for 'political reactionaries' to be on-board.

I am surprised there's been such a large drop off for a lot of them (or is it just a vocal few?).

The Moneris figures aren't due to be released for another month.

It's my belief (and now Tory and a few are getting it) that it would be *highly advantageous* to get a preliminary report from Moneris to see exactly where we stand on this. It might be very helpful to assess this on a bi-monthly basis, if for no other reason than to test policy as well as infrastructure implementation.

As to why no-one at City Hall is suggesting that is curious. This problem has to be nipped in the bud, or addressed before it goes critical.

As to some prior posters comparing to Eglinton, the analogy is far from linear. That's a Metrolinx project. King is completely City. Eglinton has been on the drawing boards for...well...a long time. The King project is hardly a construction one, albeit it should to some extent, and done right with permanent infrastructure instead of cardboard cut-outs and make-believe traffic signals.

It's also a one-time credit that helps to promote the Green P app. You don't get two hours to park for free each time you visit.

If you are addressing me, I purposely ignored the discount, one time or not. It's a mistake, they have to pay for using their car, but get a reward for parking and using King, and that's a pass on the King Corridor Cars for as long as the parking stub states time.

And the "younger gens" thing is pretty thoroughly debunked - young people today aren't any less likely to have a car than they were in the past.

Huh?
Why Millennials Are Driving Less Than Previous Generations Did at ...
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/07/the-clearest...yet-for.../398366/
Jul 13, 2015 - The ongoing discussion about Millennial driving trends is not about whether they're declining, but why. It's clear to all that young people are driving less today than they did in the past. But the reasons for these shifts in car use are what remain locked in seemingly endless debate. Two theories lead the ...
Millennials Don't Care About Owning Cars, And Car Makers Can't Figure

The Decline of the Driver's License - The Atlantic

Why are young Australians turning their back on the car?

End of the car age: how cities are outgrowing the automobile | Cities ...

For today's youth, cars no longer represent freedom - Macleans.ca

Young people are driving less than their parents. But why? - Vox

What Explains the Decline in Driving Among Young People ...

etc, etc, etc...

 

[mrgrieves]

It appears that more people are using King Steet than ever before, so unless your business is particularly auto-dependent, this pilot should only be benefiting you.

If your business is particularly auto-dependent that fact of the matter is that you'll either need to adapt, or pack up shop and move. It sucks, but we mustn't let our city be held hostage due to the interests of a handful of business owners. Toronto will get its transit priority corridor, businesses that are unable to adapt will be replaced, and Toronto as a whole will be better off for it.

Even if the business owners are suffering because of the pilot, as a whole it obviously benefits the city much more to keep the street as a transit priority corridor. But just because more people are riding the streetcar, does that mean more people are using the street? In other words say I have a retail store at Yonge and Glencairn. Thousands of people are "using the street" via the subway but they are just whizzing by it underground. I wonder if it can be argued all these streetcar riders are whizzing by the businesses on their way from work to home in Liberty Village for example. The only difference, albeit it is significant, being that streetcars use the street and they stop more frequently. I'm by no means an expert on this but this is a dramatic change for the street and I imagine it takes a long time for users of the street to adapt. It may that tourist trap restaurants don't make sense anymore there but some other type of business does.

Most of the streetcar streets are vibrant, but this is the first one that for all intents and purposes is car-free.

This pilot was a long time coming and I hope the city doesn't cave to a handful of restaurant owners and allow cars at night and weekends.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Probably not, because MEC has a big garage below its store and a loading dock on Charlotte Street. They offered free parking for customers until they announced their move, but they'll probably have something similar at their new location on Queen.

They what?! I need help. After all these years I did not know they had a garage below.

 

[crs1026]

In other words say I have a retail store at Yonge and Glencairn. Thousands of people are "using the street" via the subway but they are just whizzing by it underground. I wonder if it can be argued all these streetcar riders are whizzing by the businesses on their way from work to home in Liberty Village for example.

I do see a difference between King and your analogy. Streetcar riders do get to see the businesses on the street. I have heard plenty of people say "I saw there was this restaurant/store/whatever on King, maybe we should try it......"

Ironically, that's how I first ate at Fred's.....rode by it so often on the streetcar and wondered if it was any good. Haven't been back in a looong time, not planning to go there anytime soon.

- Paul

 

[SunriseChampion]

Because doing so usually inconveniences drivers, which got forbid we delay those people for even a second.

This mentality that some people have I also don't understand.

As a daily driver when I'm stuck in traffic my thoughts don't go to how the roadway needs to be redesigned to allow for more cars but rather to wishing I had an office job so I could take transit.

 

[SunriseChampion]

The City is caving to businesses and is now offering FREE PARKING for 2 hours in the pilot area. WTF? Isnt that going to defeat the purpose of discouraging car use? Would it not have been better to offer free streetcar during dinner hours?

Pardon my language but that's a fu*k up.

Why only there? Don't other businesses in town deserve the same consideration?

Right now I have no parking at work til after 10. I have to park hundreds of metres away. It's hurting my productivity as a small business manager. I demand parking restrictions be modified to accommodate me. Wah.