King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[ksun]

It is frustrating to even talk about this issue. Here are the facts:

1) A DRL going thru downtown won't happen for a very long time (10-15 years at least).
2) We will need the streetcars for sure.
3) The way 501/504 move simply doesn't work - way too slow (slower than walking in the core), too many stops, mixed traffic chaos. Nobody is happy: drivers, pedestrians, streetcar riders.
4) more riders will take those streetcars with all the new condos completed in the next 5 years.

Isn't it obvious that some change will be absolutely necessary to improve things to something acceptable? ROW on Queen/King is the minimum that should be done - I don't know what drivers need to complain about, isn't it stupid to drive on central Queen/King in the first place when there are better faster alternatives? As to business owners, are they delusional? How many shoppers actually drive downtown and park their car directly in front of their store or restaurant? The complaint that making Queen car free will hurt business is simply ridiculous. Such convenience is probably enjoyed about 1% of their daily customers and they are whining about it? Those who absolutely need to park in front of the store will be very unlikely to shop at Queen/Peter any more, so why bother worry about them? They will be happy in Markham or Vaughan to have 10 empty spots to choose from.

I just boggles my mind that downtown Toronto doesn't have one single pedestrian only street (small alleys aside, something longer than 200M, a real street, not just a small stretch) when there are successful examples everywhere, like cars really really have to run on every single street, even at the cost of pedestrian safety, shopping experiences as well as transit speed.

 

[ehlow]

It is frustrating to even talk about this issue. Here are the facts:

1) A DRL going thru downtown won't happen for a very long time (10-15 years at least).
2) We will need the streetcars for sure.
3) The way 501/504 move simply doesn't work - way too slow (slower than walking in the core), too many stops, mixed traffic chaos. Nobody is happy: drivers, pedestrians, streetcar riders.
4) more riders will take those streetcars with all the new condos completed in the next 5 years.

Isn't it obvious that some change will be absolutely necessary to improve things to something acceptable? ROW on Queen/King is the minimum that should be done - I don't know what drivers need to complain about, isn't it stupid to drive on central Queen/King in the first place when there are better faster alternatives? As to business owners, are they delusional? How many shoppers actually drive downtown and park their car directly in front of their store or restaurant? The complaint that making Queen car free will hurt business is simply ridiculous. Such convenience is probably enjoyed about 1% of their daily customers and they are whining about it? Those who absolutely need to park in front of the store will be very unlikely to shop at Queen/Peter any more, so why bother worry about them? They will be happy in Markham or Vaughan to have 10 empty spots to choose from.

I just boggles my mind that downtown Toronto doesn't have one single pedestrian only street (small alleys aside, something longer than 200M, a real street, not just a small stretch) when there are successful examples everywhere, like cars really really have to run on every single street, even at the cost of pedestrian safety, shopping experiences as well as transit speed.

Agreed. The DRL is at least 15 years away and east-west travel south of Bloor is way too slow now.

The first thing I'd do:
1. Ban left hand turns at most intersections
2. Ban all parking. Deliveries can only happen in the middle of the night.
3. Traffic signal syncing, or rebalancing to favour the road the streetcars are on.

In my opinion that will speed up traffic for both cars & streetcars immediately.

We just spent tons of money buying great new streetcars and rebuilding lots of track, we'll be using streetcars for many years, but we can do things to make them work better.

 

[ksun]

We just spent tons of money buying great new streetcars and rebuilding lots of track, we'll be using streetcars for many years, but we can do things to make them work better.

The new streetcars look fantastic, but if they continue working the same way the old ones work, it is not gonna solve any of Toronto's transit malaise, except providing a bit more elbow space.
Ban street parking on Queen/King (Jarvis to Spadina), preferably ban personal cars completely or at least enforce ROW, eliminate half of the stops (400-500M spacing). The new streetcars have the potential to bring so much more convenience, efficiency, joy and pride to urban dwellers.

It is just so unfortunate that we have such a great streetcar system (I personally love them) yet fail to allow it to work to its fullest potential. We would rather ask the streetcar full of 200 people to wait for one car to make a left turn because letting the cars dominate every street is so damn important.

 

[ehlow]

The new streetcars look fantastic, but if they continue working the same way the old ones work, it is not gonna solve any of Toronto's transit malaise, except providing a bit more elbow space.
Ban street parking on Queen/King (Jarvis to Spadina), preferably ban personal cars completely or at least enforce ROW, eliminate half of the stops (400-500M spacing). The new streetcars have the potential to bring so much more convenience, efficiency, joy and pride to urban dwellers.

It is just so unfortunate that we have such a great streetcar system (I personally love them) yet fail to allow it to work to its fullest potential. We would rather ask the streetcar full of 200 people to wait for one car to make a left turn because letting the cars dominate every street is so damn important.

I agree. Having said that I think the new streetcars will also help travel times due to their all-door low-floor boarding, which should reduce time spent at each stop. Since there are many stops, it should hopefully be a noticeable improvement in speed.

I also agree that we should start looking at pedestrian-only streets or areas, and that Queen West is a good candidate.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

IIRC, all door boarding will improve travel times by 10%. Not a huge amount.

 

[ksun]

IIRC, all door boarding will improve travel times by 10%. Not a huge amount.

Yes, this is the problem with us - we are so ready to be happy with some minor improvement when it doesn't solve 10% of the problem. Plus, 501 is all door boarding most of the time already.
Only 5 minutes ago, on my way to lunch, I saw three 501s one after another on the short stretch (probably less than 200M) between St Mikes and Yonge st. This is how efficiently it works.

 

[muller877]

Ban street parking on Queen/King (Jarvis to Spadina), preferably ban personal cars completely or at least enforce ROW, eliminate half of the stops (400-500M spacing). The new streetcars have the potential to bring so much more convenience, efficiency, joy and pride to urban dwellers.

.

In the core I find other than right hand turns, traffic moves fairly quickly during rush hour. Most left hand turns are banned and cars move pretty quickly (compared to outside the core). Agree with better enforcing, banning parking, etc but we (1) need more solutions for the core (other than a dedicated street which is a very long term solution) and (2) have a solution for the areas outside of the core.

One cure that no one mentions is to manage pedestrian traffic more efficiently (which will also make is safer for pedestrians). At some intersections allow for a right hand turns without pedestrian interference for 5-10 seconds concurrently with a normal green light (shown on the light with a green right arrow). This is done either at the beginning of the light cycle (end has streetcar boarding conflicts). Then allow pedestrians to cross. This would decrease the time for pedestrians but get the roads moving for cars and streetcars at the same time (some people go into the streetcar lane to avoid the right hand turners). An example of this would be King St turning south onto Spadina.

Alternatively, this could be managed by having advanced right turns at some lights and then banning right turns at others (Bay already does). For example ban all right turns from Bathurst to Spadina on King (both east and westbound). To get to the sidestreets vehicles would have an advanced right turn at Bathurst and Spadina. They would then turn right/right/right to get to their street of choice.


Both the King and Queen streetcars have equal if not larger issues with parking outside of the core. King Westbound from Dufferin to Bathurst is far worse than in the core. Eastbound its the same are plus Jameson. Queen in Leslieville is horrible (along with other spots outside of the core such as Bathurst). Lots of other areas...but too many to mention.

These areas have plenty of sidestreets and parking lots for drivers and delivery vehicles to park. However, they do act as the only main road through these neighbourhoods and it is impossible to make them a ROW outside of the core.

There are transit advocates as counsellors in a lot of these areas. Why don't they promote transit by getting rid of parking? (we all know the answer...NIMBY) They are on their local committees. They can/should incrementally suggest changes to parking within their wards. Has anyone asked their counsellors if they have done so?

 

[ehlow]

Yeah taking the Queen streetcar from say Yonge to the Beaches is pretty bad & slow. At least that was my experience.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah taking the Queen streetcar from say Yonge to the Beaches is pretty bad & slow. At least that was my experience.

I'm surprised. I'd have thought Spadina to Yonge would be far worse than Yonge to say Woodbine. Certainly on King, Spadina to Yonge is far worse than Yonge to Broadview (at least when the streetcar isn't detouring on Parliament).

 

[ehlow]

I'm surprised. I'd have thought Spadina to Yonge would be far worse than Yonge to say Woodbine. Certainly on King, Spadina to Yonge is far worse than Yonge to Broadview (at least when the streetcar isn't detouring on Parliament).

I'm north of Bloor so based on my experience, I generally prefer to take the Bloor line E-W, then take the N-S bus or streetcar south.

Ex. If I'm going to the beaches, I find it faster to take Bloor to Woodbine and take that bus south than taking the Queen streetcar long distances.

Maybe there was construction during that time, I can't remember, but I remember even going to Leslieville seemed to take a long time.

 

[nfitz]

I'm north of Bloor so based on my experience, I generally prefer to take the Bloor line E-W, then take the N-S bus or streetcar south.

Ex. If I'm going to the beaches, I find it faster to take Bloor to Woodbine and take that bus south than taking the Queen streetcar long distances.

Maybe there was construction during that time, I can't remember, but I remember even going to Leslieville seemed to take a long time.

I don't find Yonge to Leslieville takes particularly long on Queen even in rush-hour. Once you past Victoria or Church, it's pretty clear sailing, other than some congestion at Broadview.

But yes, if you are up on Bloor ... take the subway, and then drop down. Subway is faster than streetcar.

 

[W. K. Lis]

There has been discussion about improving pedestrian safety and customer journey times, especially the stops. Download the PDF from this link.

So what happens? The NIMBYS object to stop removal. and other objections. Nothing new, try to improve things but someone will be against it.

 

[ehlow]

There has been discussion about improving pedestrian safety and customer journey times, especially the stops. Download the PDF from this link.

So what happens? The NIMBYS object to stop removal. and other objections. Nothing new, try to improve things but someone will be against it.

Any time anything happens or anything changes, someone loudly complains about it.

 

[muller877]

I don't find Yonge to Leslieville takes particularly long on Queen even in rush-hour. Once you past Victoria or Church, it's pretty clear sailing, other than some congestion at Broadview.

But yes, if you are up on Bloor ... take the subway, and then drop down. Subway is faster than streetcar.

Once you get past Broadview it crawls. But Leslieville is fortunate. They have Eastern a block away. A through street that is not residential. On the west end (Bathurst to Dufferin for example) there are no alternative routes for vehicles to take. They have to take King or Queen to avoid residential streets.

Each neighbourhood is a bit unique and there should be a brainstorming session to identify what can speed the streetcars and vehicles (which block streetcars) up in each location.

Another simple suggestion is better signage for bikes. Have arrows pointing to the Eastern bike lanes on Queen E (with permanent maps showing the optimum and safe bike routes). And arrows pointing to Wellington and Richmond/Adelaide on King W. Move traffic off of the streetcar route (bikes in this instance)...every incremental bit helps.

But none of the simple ideas are sexy...so politicians and city hall won't want to do them.

 

[nfitz]

Once you get past Broadview it crawls.

When? Where? Which direction? I just did it westbound in late peak from Broadview to Parliament and it was fine.

They have Eastern a block away. A through street that is not residential.

Eastern is fast when it's moving. The traffic jam at Eastern/Logan in rush-hour is worse than Queen/Logan. Other than that, Eastern moves well - mostly because there are very few traffic lights between Carlaw and Coxwell, with the large industrial properties to the south. Dundas moves fairly well as well. The east side if far better connected than the west side, with no huge park to worry about, and it being a lot easier to carve through new roads like Dundas, Eastern, and Lakeshore that were politically more difficult in the west.