King and Queen West Streetcar lines.

[TOareaFan]

Sorry if there is already a thread about this (if there is I assume that this one will just get merged out of existence).

Sometimes we all look for massive big projects to solve our transit and transportation issues when there are smaller/incremental improvements staring us in the face.

This may seem counter-intuitive from me (as I drive more often than I use transit) but I think these two lines have so much potential to ease a lot of transit issues (in rush hour at least) if we could just help them out.

The first thing I would do is increase (substantially) the fines and actually enforce the rules on cars using the streetcar lanes during the restricted period (I think it is 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. in the morning and 4 - 6 in the evening) while at the same time, do the same to the parking restrictions in the curb lanes. I drive the King route fairly often and notice that I might be the only one (allow some exageration) staying out of the left hand/streetcar only lane and a large part of it is that no one penalizes the cars that are parked in the curb lane. If the streetcars really did have unfettered access to their lane during these hours they would be far more reliable.

The second thing I would do is increase the length of the actual restrictions........6 a.m. to 10 a.m. and 4 to 8 p.m. are far more reflective, I think, of Toronto's rush hour patterns. While keeping the above noted enforcement on parking and wrongful use of the streetcar lanes.

The third thing would be more cars....the ones now are pretty crowded during the rush. Maybe this is not even needed because maybe just being able to move better allows the same number of cars to make more trips more quickly to alleviate the crowding.

The fourth thing.........(and I do not know if this is possible), augment the services by running more expressy type service on Adelaide. In the morning, a street car moving eastbound and in the afternoon a westbound service, could delver people from the core to Bathurst (obviously making a good connection at Spadina) fairly quickly. The biggest logistical problem is, clearly, the westbound movement of a streetcar on a one-way eastbound road.....not sure how to get over that (hoped there were smarter people than me here) or if you could just move the afternoon service to Richmond (are there tracks on Richmond, I don't use it so I don't know).

Even if #4 was not possible, the first 3 could make for a relatively inexpensive (with the initial fining of cars to get the message through perhaps even self financing) transit improvement.

Not sure if the issue is the same in the east end but if it is you could make these small improvements at both ends of the city!

 

[W. K. Lis]

The problem I think is that between the tracks, they have a smooth surface in which the automobile traffic can use. I remember the cobblestones that were between the tracks. That gave motor vehicles a bouncy ride should they drove over them, forcing them into the right lanes to get a smooth ride. They were replaced by asphalt and later concrete, which unfortunately gave the motor vehicles a smooth ride.

The TTC should return to either using cobblestones or a rubble surface between the tracks, except at intersections. That way, should a motorist want a smoother ride, they would have to move into the right lane.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think I get what you are saying but the cars driving in the streetcar lanes are breaking a rule/law (cobbles or not) and it just seems to me that we have given up enfourcing it (if we ever did). If the financial penalties were levied and at increased levels, the need for cobbles would disappear!

 

[DSC]

Yes, it is a good idea to do simple things before trying to remake the transit world but there are some problems with your suggestions:

1. Increase (substantially) the fines and actually enforce the rules on cars using the streetcar lanes during the restricted period Great idea but apparently the police are 'too busy" and, of course, they resist allowing using the parking enforcement people for moving traffic offences. (They could also ticket cars parked in the No Parking lanes a bit more aggressively!)
2. Increase the length of the actual restrictions. Another good idea but not if they are not enforced.
3. More cars Unfortunately there are no spares at rush hours.
4. Run more expressy type service on Adelaide. The tracks on (most of) both Adelaide and Richmond are not safe and have no overhead - they are supposed to be rebuilt in 2012 or 2013 but that's been promised for ages and it keeps being moved into the future. I think their main aim is to allow for diversions but express service is certainly another possibility.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, it is a good idea to do simple things before trying to remake the transit world but there are some problems with your suggestions:

Thanks for the response.

1. Increase (substantially) the fines and actually enforce the rules on cars using the streetcar lanes during the restricted period Great idea but apparently the police are 'too busy" and, of course, they resist allowing using the parking enforcement people for moving traffic offences. (They could also ticket cars parked in the No Parking lanes a bit more aggressively!)

This is the key part so an attitude shift is needed. I actually envision giving the TTC the power to levy these fines and incentive to do so is that the TTC would get to allow the finds levied to flow directly to them. I thought I mentioned the extra parking enfourcement...if I didn't I am sorry. As, primarily, a driver I fully get that if you are going to fine drivers heavily for using those street car lanes, then you have to also aggressively penalize cars that are parked illigally so that the cars can still get through.

2. Increase the length of the actual restrictions. Another good idea but not if they are not enforced.

Obviously if the enforcement (and the will to enforce) are not there then neither #1 nor #2 have any chance of helping out.

3. More cars Unfortunately there are no spares at rush hours.

Maybe we don't need them. Like I said, perhaps just the extra efficiency helps out enough that the cars we have are better utilized.

4. Run more expressy type service on Adelaide. The tracks on (most of) both Adelaide and Richmond are not safe and have no overhead - they are supposed to be rebuilt in 2012 or 2013 but that's been promised for ages and it keeps being moved into the future. I think their main aim is to allow for diversions but express service is certainly another possibility.

Thanks for that info....I see cars diverting off of Spadina onto Adelaide then making a quick right hand turn a lot of mornings but never see them continue any further. Really have never paid attention on Richmond to see if there were tracks or if they were used.

Another part of the idea would be giving some signal priority/controll to the streetcars during the rush hour period also (not sure how I left that out)....I think if we can do some of these things to give streetcars a comparative speed advantage over cars it could alleviate a lot of the east west congestion in the south end of the city.

 

[Fred.S]

More radical idea...

I've played around with the idea of modifying Queen, Richmond, Adelaide and King streets to separate streetcar and car traffic. Something I thought up was converting the four streets to alternating one-way streets between Bathurst and where they converge at the Don River. Queen and King would become one-way, and Adelaide and Richmond would switch directions. This could actually also improve car flow as well as streetcar service.

Proposal:
Queen = Westbound, Richmond = Eastbound, Adelaide = Westbound, King = Eastbound
All with 3 traffic lanes and streetcar ROW (right-most lane) = 6 car lanes per direction (4 non-rush, parking in left-most lane)

Although cars lose 2 lanes per direction, they're not mixed with streetcars, which currently slow them down in 4 lanes, due to being in the lane or blocking the right lane with people boarding/alighting.

The split at Bathurst may be a challenge, although it's actually fairly wide between Queen and King, and I think could probably handle the turning traffic with proper street and traffic light design.

 

[Chuck]

Yes, one way is the way to go, and solves so many problems. One way streets move cars far more efficiently, meaning that you can swap car lanes with transit or bike lanes, widen sidewalks, and still end up moving move cars, streetcars, and cyclists than today.

I agree very much with 1 dedicated streetcar lane per street. I'd use the King and Queen lines for local streetcar service, and the Adelaide and Richmond lanes for express streetcar service, with stops at the same cross streets as the Bloor subway line.

A typical cross section could be parking lane, normal driving lane, HOV driving lane, dedicated streetcar lane, bike lane, sidewalk. The extra width for the bikes could come from narrower road space for the streetcar.

 

[Catapult]

There are restrictions on use of the streetcar lanes on King and Queen during certain hours? News to me and I've walked along King to and from work everyday for 8 years. The best solution in my opinion is to make King and Queen one way streets like Adelaide and Richmond. You could then have one dedicated lane for streetcars, one parking lane (with no time restrictions) and two traffic lanes. I'm sure you could even squeeze in a bike lane.

 

[nfitz]

There are restrictions on use of the streetcar lanes on King and Queen during certain hours? News to me and I've walked along King to and from work everyday for 8 years.

I don't recall any on Queen. But what are all those black diamond signs are on King that say:

STREETCAR LANE
7 AM - 9 AM
4 PM - 6 PM
MON - FRI

 

[jwill]

For one way streets to work with transit they really need to be fairly close together. Otherwise if I live on the north side of Queen I would have to walk all the way down to King to catch a streetcar to work. Vice versa for King St. residents on the way back. It might work with Richmond and Adelaide, but they effectively only get as far west as Bathurst. I agree that it would improve conditions for drivers, but it would be far less convenient for streetcar riders. I'm not sure there would be huge time savings either for the streetcars. When I used the queen car to commute the delays were related more to passengers boarding and alighting and traffic lights than congestion.

 

[Fred.S]

For one way streets to work with transit they really need to be fairly close together. Otherwise if I live on the north side of Queen I would have to walk all the way down to King to catch a streetcar to work. Vice versa for King St. residents on the way back. It might work with Richmond and Adelaide, but they effectively only get as far west as Bathurst. I agree that it would improve conditions for drivers, but it would be far less convenient for streetcar riders. I'm not sure there would be huge time savings either for the streetcars. When I used the queen car to commute the delays were related more to passengers boarding and alighting and traffic lights than congestion.

The idea is that Queen would go one way, and Richmond the other. So you would only be walking a very short bock further south to Richmond (which takes what, like not even a minute?). It actually provides more coverage, improves streetcar reliability, and passengers can board right from the sidewalk, which could also be widened. This probably wont speed up streetcar traffic that much due to only being a 4 km ROW that goes back into mixed traffic on each end. But imagine how great the street woud look.

One of the big issues with this though, is that to work most effectively, Queen would have to go westbound, and Richmond go eastbound. Richmond and Adelaide are going the wrong ways, and so would have to be reversed, meaning a redesign of the ramps to the DVP on the east end. Although they would have to be redone anyway to accomodate the ROWs, with ramps for streetcars to get back onto king, to merge with queen. Maybe I'll make a street graphic, time for some photoshop...

It would be great to throw bike lanes into the mix (I am primarily a cyclist) but street width is becoming an issue.

 

[Northern Light]

I want to applaud TOareaFan for raising the issue of better service management/planning on these routes, but need to thow cold water on a few ideas.

So, first off, on lane restrictions, Queen currently has none, yes King has those signs, though I thought the by-law was repealed, in any event, the are not now, nor have they ever been enforced. Hence the TTC's desire for physically separated ROWs.

Aside from police obstinence there are other reasons enforcement hasn't occurred.

It left-turns are legal, then convention requires you make your turn from the farthest left vehicle lane. This means cars were always granted the right to make lefts from the streetcar tracks.

The TTC even doesn't mind this in theory, in that cars making lefts from the right lane might well forget a streetcar approaching to their left, and TTC drivers might not expect a car coming across the track from the right lane.

But police then have to nit pick, where this is no demarcated left hand turn lane, how soon are you legally allowed to enter the track lane, before making your turn (not specified on any sign).....

Needless to say, this gets complicated.

****

With respect to one-way operation of King/Queen, aside from personally opposing this...... let's be clear every downtown councillor and most downtown residents and businesses oppose this for a variety of reasons, which we needn't rehash here. Except to say, it ain't happening, so let's try something else.

****

The TTC has made a few practical proposals but has had little luck getting them through Council.

One, is to almost wholesale restrict left-hand turns off the tracks, 24/7. Cars waiting to make a left off the tracks are the biggest single source of delay to streetcars, and police have expressed far greater willingness to enforce this type of infraction, which tehy see as clear and unambiguous

Another is to get rid of the taxi stands on King. However, the Mirvishes are known to oppose this in their area of King; and the taxis are none too impressed in the absence of nearby, convenient alternative loading point.

To my knowledge none of these has yet passed Council.

Both should, as they are relatively cheap, easy to enforce, and will have great benefit for the streetcar lines in question.

*******

The other issues that arise including how to deal with left-hand turns if and where they must be permitted. The TTC would like to see dedicated left lanes wherever this is the case, room permitting so as to get said left-turners out of the way. This especially includes their own streetcars (ie. a left turning streetcar holds up a through-bound car behind it). This used to happen at Kingston Rd & Queen but when the racetrack was torn down, Queen was widened so that the streetcars have a left-turn and a through lane.

This issue still occurs at Queen & Broadview (King car goes left in front of EB Queen Car)

Also needed at more turn backs or cross-ups to nearby routes to help manage accidents better, and to make short-turns shorter, where practical.

As per TTC reports, obvious changes would feature a new loop at Queen/Broadview; and n-s tracks added to Jones (or Carlaw) connecting Queen to Gerrard; as well as full tracks on Dufferin and Ossington linking the College/Dundas/Queen and King Routes.

Not TTC noted, but required is at least one more turn loop on the King car in the west end, comparable to Charlotte on-road.

This would likely be best at Bathurst or Dufferin (ie. Queen car could turn around via Dufferin-Peel-Gladstone or the like.

Finally, the TTC needs its operations people to make sure operators don't muck up the service on purpose. Ideally this would be done by installing dedicated transit signals at the ends of the line, and at one mid-point (likely Yonge/Bay) where the streetcar would not be allowed to proceed A) if was ahead of schedule; B) if another car had left the stop in the preceding 2 min. (transit control would be able to override the signal as needed).

I

 

[Fred.S]

With respect to one-way operation of King/Queen, aside from personally opposing this...... let's be clear every downtown councillor and most downtown residents and businesses oppose this for a variety of reasons, which we needn't rehash here. Except to say, it ain't happening, so let's try something else.

Just curious... why you personally disagree with the idea?

Otherwise you bring up lots of good points about improving streetcar operations.

I was actually wondering earlier about that streetcar left turn lane at Queen and Kingston, and when they put that in. Unrelated to the thread, do you know why the streetcar tracks split apart on Carlton between Yonge and Church?

 

[TOareaFan]

There are restrictions on use of the streetcar lanes on King and Queen during certain hours? News to me and I've walked along King to and from work everyday for 8 years.

Yep......morning and evening rush hours for two hours cars are forbidden to drive in King streetcar lanes, parking is not allowed and no left turns are allowed.....signs are there, but no enforcement and, clearly, no awareness.

 

[TOareaFan]

I want to applaud TOareaFan for raising the issue of better service management/planning on these routes,

blush....see us drivers are not all bad!

but need to thow cold water on a few ideas.

drats

So, first off, on lane restrictions, Queen currently has none, yes King has those signs, though I thought the by-law was repealed, in any event, the are not now, nor have they ever been enforced. Hence the TTC's desire for physically separated ROWs.

Aside from police obstinence there are other reasons enforcement hasn't occurred.

It left-turns are legal, then convention requires you make your turn from the farthest left vehicle lane. This means cars were always granted the right to make lefts from the streetcar tracks.

I just, I guess, assumed there were similar lane restrictions on Queen.......as for left hand turns, aside from signs forbidding driviing in the streetcar lanes, and signs forbidding parking in the right hand lanes, there are signs forbidding left hand turns during the same hours the entire length of the restrictions.....so it just comes down to enforcement (and, in my world, extension of the hours).