James: Streetcar plan takes speed out of ‘rapid’ transit

[kettal]

How can anyone claim that an Eglinton LRT will be faster than the Bloor line? With equivalent stop spacing, they'll be the same speed, if not slower for Eglinton since it's not fully grade-separated.

Because the LRT don't have the same headway requirements that subways do, and they can skip surface stations where there is no request. Bloor Subway has to stop at every station, and cannot proceed until the next station is clear. On large, busy stations, two LRTs can be on the same track and platform at the same time.

See page 12 of this document: http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proj...n_lrt/pdf/2009-11-20_display_panels_part1.pdf

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If you remove stops and reduce frequencies on a high volume arterial, you ensure that vehicles will basically never skip a stop. No time will be saved that way.

The numbers on page 12 for existing TTC routes are blatantly tweaked to make LRT look good, and the numbers for Eglinton are what they hope to achieve using an optimistic model, not what will be achieved.

The total amount of time saved going from Kennedy to the airport area won't be particularly enormous, but no one does this trip and no one will...the Bloor/Danforth line already goes across the city. Eglinton, whether 32km/hr or 30km/hr or even 20km/hr will save time over shorter stretches that people actually travel along. It's normal for the bus to take 20-30 minutes to travel just a few kilometres in the Dufferin-Yonge zone. Even after you reduce frequencies and remove something like 2/3 or more of the stops and factor in walking up and down flights of stairs, many trips from random points-to-points in the central section will literally be slashed in half or more because of the tunnel.

Outside the tunnel, no improvements are guaranteed, which is the multi-billion dollar gamble.

 

[Fresh Start]

Lol.

Clearly you have not ridden the Eglinton West Bus. I used to a regular rider until March, and I can assure you, from Eglinton to Dufferin, the bus took min 35 minutes. Your bias is showing, if you think LRT running in tunnel, and ROW is not going to be faster than the current buses.

I think he means the DVP. Traffic on Eglinton to the Allen usually backs up at Old Park Rd, and Marlee Ave.

Well transit through the tunnel could be wicked fast or it can be subject to the same bunching/stalling issues that likely will persist on the surface sections. There's also not enough grade separation considering how the TTC's fumbling the ball over Mount Dennis and could just as well have kept the Eglinton East ROW completely grade-separated til east of Don Mills rather than surface for a kilometre then go underground again. There's also far too many stops (particularly witin Mississauga ironically) to make the claim of rapid ring true for me when it costs the TTC very little to implement an every 15 minutes scheduled parallel bus route to mind all the gaps. Lastly I'm skeptical as to why they won't just run the ECLRT another 6 kms over to Kingston Rd. This is one of the most heavily congested stretches of Eglinton where several buses overlap in a gangway to provide adequate service. Assuming the Scarbroough-Malvern LRT line is now off the table, what will become of this area in contrast to the alledged rapid transit not too far over to the west?

I'm not biased against LRT, I'm biased against the TTC's utter route mismanagement of the LRT lines it always has (you can lambast semantics over the definiton of LRT if you choose, I won't). And deceiving the public into thinking that this will be any different because less than a third of the entire route will be grade separated is a false analogy. There's people here under the serious impression that we're going to be receiving a Calgary-style LRT but fail to realize that that system's within 100% an exclusive ROW with no mitigating traffic to disrupt its operations (transit malls in the downtown, private roadside ROW in the 'burbs i.e. no mixed traffic operations whatsoever). Thanks to the Richview expressway lands and the parking lot nature of the Golden Mile, we have the unique opportunity to build that calibre of transit right across Eglinton; which is why like the author suggests we - via our indifference or tacit support of TC as is - are settling for mediocrity, for second best.

Yes, west of Mount Dennis the bus is particulary fast. But if the rapid transit service's forced to stop 19 times west of there vs. the 9 stops that are actually necessary at roughly 2 minute intervals between stops and 15 second stopovers at each stop going at a maximum of 28 km/h - you start to put two and two together to conclude that all this money could be spent towards building a REAL rapid transit line.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Yeah, the thing that blows my mind most about Eglinton is that you can talk as much as you want about how LRT will do and all, but less than 1/3 of Eglinton actually has to be tunneled in any way. Only the area between Black Creek and Laird would have to be tunneled as a subway. Between Royal York and Black Creek, and Laird to a final terminus at Kingston, it can all be raised. Then, Martin Grove to Royal York can be trenched in the Richview corridor. These very simple grade separations would add little comparatively to the project, for a huge increase in service by having the entire line grade separated.

 

[sixrings]

Well Id prefer to have more dependable lines with tunneled sections ONLY where we have to with less stops then a bus route then continuing to have busses which no one seems to like or want to use...

TC would be great to me if it included every blue line... So it would NEED to have LRT on JANE, ISLINGTON, WILSON, LAWRENCE, BATHURST and DUFFERN, as well

 

[kettal]

If you remove stops and reduce frequencies on a high volume arterial, you ensure that vehicles will basically never skip a stop. No time will be saved that way.

The numbers on page 12 for existing TTC routes are blatantly tweaked to make LRT look good, and the numbers for Eglinton are what they hope to achieve using an optimistic model, not what will be achieved.

I wonder why they forgot to cook the books on the eastern surface section, then.

 

[kettal]

^^ Yeah, the thing that blows my mind most about Eglinton is that you can talk as much as you want about how LRT will do and all, but less than 1/3 of Eglinton actually has to be tunneled in any way. Only the area between Black Creek and Laird would have to be tunneled as a subway. Between Royal York and Black Creek, and Laird to a final terminus at Kingston, it can all be raised. Then, Martin Grove to Royal York can be trenched in the Richview corridor. These very simple grade separations would add little comparatively to the project, for a huge increase in service by having the entire line grade separated.

I'm not convinced that burying or elevated tracks would be as cheap as you make it out to be. On the plus side, Golden Mile is such a hole that I doubt anybody would seriously object to an elevated track there.

 

[nfitz]

The numbers on page 12 for existing TTC routes are blatantly tweaked to make LRT look good, and the numbers for Eglinton are what they hope to achieve using an optimistic model, not what will be achieved.

Are they? I just checked the TTC trip planner which gives the currently scheduled times. In Afteroon PM rush I got 76 minutes from Pearson T1 to Eglinton station compared to 70 minutes in the table; and 43 minutes from Eglinton to Kennedy compared to 43 minutes in the schedule.

Not only does those examples not appear cooked, they are optimistic, as anyone who takes it in rush hour knows, you'll be lucky if you are on schedule! I admit I haven't checked the other times though.

On the plus side, Golden Mile is such a hole that I doubt anybody would seriously object to an elevated track there.

It might well be the only stretch of Transit City where an elevated structure similiar to Skytrain may actually make it look better!

 

[Fresh Start]

I'm not convinced that burying or elevated tracks would be as cheap as you make it out to be. On the plus side, Golden Mile is such a hole that I doubt anybody would seriously object to an elevated track there.

Grade separation might cost more initially but more than pays for itself in the long run. If the public's convinced that there'll be fast and reliable service right across central 416, it lessens the dependency that two-thirds of north-of-Bloor patrons will have on B-D and trigger the kind of sustainable transit-oriented development that'd transform Golden Mile into more than just a big box/strip mall craphole.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I wonder why they forgot to cook the books on the eastern surface section, then.

Maybe they are are cooked.

I'm not convinced that burying or elevated tracks would be as cheap as you make it out to be. On the plus side, Golden Mile is such a hole that I doubt anybody would seriously object to an elevated track there.

It needs to be compared with the cost of running in the middle of Eglinton. Doing that requires that the entire road be completely rebuilt and widened. A shallow trench or slight elevation through spots like Richview, big box parking lots near Pharmacy, and the interchanges at the 404 and Celestica may allow much of the road to be left alone, may not require moving sewers, may keep more lanes available for traffic during construction, etc. By tunnelling, trenching, and elevating in various stretches you may have more scheduling options in terms of workers and subcontractors. Whatever method keeps the line as close to the ground as possible but still separated from traffic is best. Elevating probably isn't a good idea unless it's to cross a valley of some sort, like Eglinton Flats, perhaps. Trenches through Richview or elsewhere can be redeveloped over time, recouping money and adding riders...a ROW in the middle of the road cannot.

Are they? I just checked the TTC trip planner which gives the currently scheduled times. In Afteroon PM rush I got 76 minutes from Pearson T1 to Eglinton station compared to 70 minutes in the table; and 43 minutes from Eglinton to Kennedy compared to 43 minutes in the schedule.

Not only does those examples not appear cooked, they are optimistic, as anyone who takes it in rush hour knows, you'll be lucky if you are on schedule! I admit I haven't checked the other times though.

You should also admit to not reading page 12 in that link or the rest of my post, because that's not what either one is about.

 

[Chuck]

It needs to be compared with the cost of running in the middle of Eglinton. Doing that requires that the entire road be completely rebuilt and widened. A shallow trench or slight elevation through spots like Richview, big box parking lots near Pharmacy, and the interchanges at the 404 and Celestica may allow much of the road to be left alone, may not require moving sewers, may keep more lanes available for traffic during construction, etc.

Considering that at grade segments of Transit City still require complete rebuilding of the road, lane closures during construction, and relocation of sewers, utility poles, and underground wires, it's sad that all we get out of it is just that - a surface route operating at the whim of traffic lights and snow. The TTC should just go the extra mile and build full fledged grade separated lines on some key routes.

 

[nfitz]

You should also admit to not reading page 12 in that link or the rest of my post, because that's not what either one is about.

You didn't reference any document in particular, or any other post, so I assumed that you were referring to the travel time estimates ... though I can now see that you were referring to the bus velocities in something someone else had linked. Those seem to be the velocities from the time-table. Doesn't look particularily wrong ...

 

[reaperexpress]

Grade separation might cost more initially but more than pays for itself in the long run. If the public's convinced that there'll be fast and reliable service right across central 416, it lessens the dependency that two-thirds of north-of-Bloor patrons will have on B-D and trigger the kind of sustainable transit-oriented development that'd transform Golden Mile into more than just a big box/strip mall craphole.

And on top of that, by increasing the speed you reduce the time required to make a round trip, which reduces the number of vehicles and drivers required to maintain a given frequency.

And you might get energy savings from having to stop less, but the cost savings would be negligible.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You didn't reference any document in particular, or any other post, so I assumed that you were referring to the travel time estimates ... though I can now see that you were referring to the bus velocities in something someone else had linked. Those seem to be the velocities from the time-table. Doesn't look particularily wrong ...

Hit reply after reading the thread next time.

Also note that the speed of the Bloor subway is wrong in that table, and that the speed of the Spadina streetcar includes the entire Bloor-Union trip...the segment most people actually ride north of King is even slower.

 

[nfitz]

Also note that the speed of the Bloor subway is wrong in that table, and that the speed of the Spadina streetcar includes the entire Bloor-Union trip...the segment most people actually ride north of King is even slower.

The Spadina streecar is a km/hr slower than listed, and the BD line is a km/hr higher ... and that is "blatantly tweaked"?