Is the TTC (still) the most expensive transit system in North America?

[W. K. Lis]

The fact that the TTC is trying to discourage people from buying transit passes is especially stupid. The TTC probably reasons that people with transit passes will put a burden on the system because they will take many more trips than they would if they had to pay out of pocket every time. I look at it the other way: people who are discouraged from buying a pass and end up buying tokens take transit far less than they would if they had a pre-paid pass, and end up using cars for more trips than they normally would have. This puts a burden on the TTC in other ways: through added congestion and reductions in service reliability.

Just thinking about myself, I don't know how many times my girlfriend and I would just end up driving within downtown to go out for dinner, because the cost of on-street parking was always lower (usually free after 9, anyway) than two people taking the TTC back and forth. The observation is anecdotal, but I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

Actually, I think that the TTC would prefer that everyone buy any pass, but then not use them. If you lose a pass, there is no quick free replacement. Customers can hope it gets turned in (see link), fat chance of that.

That's why I think that if city council members get a free MetroPass, but then don't use it, it costs the TTC almost nothing (except for the cost of the material). However, Rob Ford got rid of that "perk", which it would be only if they actually use it.

 

[doady]

With regard to the suburban systems, it's kind of insane the difference between Toronto and, say, New York. A person living in Richmond Hill going to the downtown core would pay something like $7 for a YRT ride and then a TTC ride. A person living in Westchester or Long Island would pay only the standard $2.50 fare on their local bus system (Bee-Line, NICE) and get a FREE transfer onto the NYC MTA subway. So the cost for a suburban rider is close to TRIPLE in the GTA. The lack of integration and free transfers is utterly pathetic and a major barrier to getting cars off the road. The same is true in Chicago when riding a Pace bus - pay your $2.25 fare, then a standard 25 cent transfer when getting on the CTA subway, just like a CTA to CTA transfer.

The GTA is so broken. Metrolinx should absorb them all, charge the TTC fares, and allow free transfers across the region.

Yeah, I think free transfers between TTC and 905 is needed. Imagine someone living Centre/Yonge and going to Sheppard/Yonge. That's a $7 cash fare for a short distance.

On the other hand, with free transfers, fares could be too cheap, like someone taking local bus from Oakville all the way to Scarborough for just $3, but how many would do that anyways? Even for $1? It's not a big deal.

No need to even compare to NYC or Chicago, the 905 systems allow free transfers to each other too. TTC is the only system in the GTA that doesn't. It's not just about the suburbs either, people in 416 use the 905 systems too.

Toronto needs to stop seeing the 905 systems as competition stealing riders from the TTC and draining the TTC. It's time to allow the 905 systems to serve Toronto and integrate fares with them.

Btw, I don't think you can directly compare cost of transit in Chicago and NYC to Toronto since those two cities get a lot more funding from higher level governments for transit than the GTA does. And furthermore didn't the City of Toronto reject the proposed regional funding schemes...? The 905 supported them. The City of Toronto's rejection of new taxes for transit won't help with transit fares either.

 

[Long Island Mike]

It did, until 2013. But every system would have its unique fare structures. The point, I think, is to use the example fares cited to point out the overall trend, which is that the TTC is really expensive. So when people like Ford deny new revenue streams or demand the riders pay more (Ford Nation loves that one) they need to realize that the farebox well is dry.

JA and S: NYC Transit discontinued the one-day "Fun Pass" on December 30,2010 and only 7 and 30 day Unlimited Metrocards remain available...With that fare increase the MTA wanted to implement ride "caps" on these cards and after strong protest from riders and transit organizations
the MTA backed down on this proposal...

For more NYC Transit fare information see: http://metro.wikia.com/wiki/MetroCard

LI MIKE

 

[BMO]

Yeah, I think free transfers between TTC and 905 is needed. Imagine someone living Centre/Yonge and going to Sheppard/Yonge. That's a $7 cash fare for a short distance.

On the other hand, with free transfers, fares could be too cheap, like someone taking local bus from Oakville all the way to Scarborough for just $3, but how many would do that anyways? Even for $1? It's not a big deal.

No need to even compare to NYC or Chicago, the 905 systems allow free transfers to each other too. TTC is the only system in the GTA that doesn't. It's not just about the suburbs either, people in 416 use the 905 systems too.

Toronto needs to stop seeing the 905 systems as competition stealing riders from the TTC and draining the TTC. It's time to allow the 905 systems to serve Toronto and integrate fares with them.

Btw, I don't think you can directly compare cost of transit in Chicago and NYC to Toronto since those two cities get a lot more funding from higher level governments for transit than the GTA does. And furthermore didn't the City of Toronto reject the proposed regional funding schemes...? The 905 supported them. The City of Toronto's rejection of new taxes for transit won't help with transit fares either.

I think the issue with Toronto, which is both a blessing and unfortunate, is that our system is actually bursting at the seams, usually advocates for free transfers can point to the fact that subways are running half empty anyway, and that by allowing free transfers you save through other externalities like less traffic congestion, health issues from the pollution, etc. Like we see today, there is NO space to even accomodate extra riders, even if the transfer from YRT to TTC (for instance) was free. It would just further exacerbate the issue at this specific point in time. I'm a huge advocate for the Yonge Subway North, but I also acknowledge that something needs to be done in this city to bring some relief to the Yonge st subway line. It's essentially the 401 of the transit world, where a large portion of people taking transit within Toronto end up on it one way or another. As we see the issues of overcrowding addressed it's much easier, in terms of optics, to advocate for free transfers. Right now there's this whole issue that Torontonians have with 905ers taking the subway and not paying for it, simply because it is expensive to maintain and by doing so it actually diminishes the service for everyone.

But ya know, what else did we expect to happen when we have a feeder system that routes basically every singloe bus route north of Bloor onto the YUS line. Like I said, it's a result of a system being almost too successful, in a sense amd a reality of the increasing private vehicle congestion experienced on alternate route options.

 

[Electrify]

The fact that the TTC is trying to discourage people from buying transit passes is especially stupid. The TTC probably reasons that people with transit passes will put a burden on the system because they will take many more trips than they would if they had to pay out of pocket every time. I look at it the other way: people who are discouraged from buying a pass and end up buying tokens take transit far less than they would if they had a pre-paid pass, and end up using cars for more trips than they normally would have. This puts a burden on the TTC in other ways: through added congestion and reductions in service reliability.

Just thinking about myself, I don't know how many times my girlfriend and I would just end up driving within downtown to go out for dinner, because the cost of on-street parking was always lower (usually free after 9, anyway) than two people taking the TTC back and forth. The observation is anecdotal, but I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

The sad thing is that with its frequent service and tight stop spacing, the TTC excels best at local trips. But as you point out, the fare structure discourages this.

When I was a frequent rider of the TTC I try to think about using a token for a short or extra trip as being cheaper than buying a pass. Because for the most part it is, at worst breaking even.

 

[doady]

I think the issue with Toronto, which is both a blessing and unfortunate, is that our system is actually bursting at the seams, usually advocates for free transfers can point to the fact that subways are running half empty anyway, and that by allowing free transfers you save through other externalities like less traffic congestion, health issues from the pollution, etc. Like we see today, there is NO space to even accomodate extra riders, even if the transfer from YRT to TTC (for instance) was free. It would just further exacerbate the issue at this specific point in time. I'm a huge advocate for the Yonge Subway North, but I also acknowledge that something needs to be done in this city to bring some relief to the Yonge st subway line. It's essentially the 401 of the transit world, where a large portion of people taking transit within Toronto end up on it one way or another. As we see the issues of overcrowding addressed it's much easier, in terms of optics, to advocate for free transfers. Right now there's this whole issue that Torontonians have with 905ers taking the subway and not paying for it, simply because it is expensive to maintain and by doing so it actually diminishes the service for everyone.

But ya know, what else did we expect to happen when we have a feeder system that routes basically every singloe bus route north of Bloor onto the YUS line. Like I said, it's a result of a system being almost too successful, in a sense amd a reality of the increasing private vehicle congestion experienced on alternate route options.

I was thinking more like bus-to-bus transfer. Like someone travelling from south Markham to North Scarborough or vice versa. Should that cost $7?

905 could overwhelm the subway capacity if we assume they all travel from Finch all the way downtown, but given the presence of GO Trains during rush hour, when the most capacity is needed, I'm not sure that would be true.

I think the ridership gain from York to Toronto from free transfers would mostly be for people who travel short distances. Like from Yonge-Highway 7 to Yonge-Sheppard (or vice versa). That's more subway ridership, but would that overwhelm the subway system? I don't think so. But I think the real ridership gain would be bus-to-bus transfers.

It's a social justice thing too. Is it coincidence that the poorest neighbourhoods of Toronto are on the fringes? I think free transfers between 416-905 would be a great benefit to places like Rexdale, Jane-Finch, Malvern, etc. too.

I don't think encouraging short trips across the 416-905 border, which is what free transfers probably would do mostly, would actually burden the system too much. The lack of free transfers is not a barrier for long distance travel, only short distances. And long distances, GO is way better at that anyways.

 

[BMO]

I was thinking more like bus-to-bus transfer. Like someone travelling from south Markham to North Scarborough or vice versa. Should that cost $7?

905 could overwhelm the subway capacity if we assume they all travel from Finch all the way downtown, but given the presence of GO Trains during rush hour, when the most capacity is needed, I'm not sure that would be true.

I think the ridership gain from York to Toronto from free transfers would mostly be for people who travel short distances. Like from Yonge-Highway 7 to Yonge-Sheppard (or vice versa). That's more subway ridership, but would that overwhelm the subway system? I don't think so. But I think the real ridership gain would be bus-to-bus transfers.

It's a social justice thing too. Is it coincidence that the poorest neighbourhoods of Toronto are on the fringes? I think free transfers between 416-905 would be a great benefit to places like Rexdale, Jane-Finch, Malvern, etc. too.

I don't think encouraging short trips across the 416-905 border, which is what free transfers probably would do mostly, would actually burden the system too much. The lack of free transfers is not a barrier for long distance travel, only short distances. And long distances, GO is way better at that anyways.

You bring up some really valid points. I have by no means looked at any definite numbers to back up what I'm going to say, but I believe I've read that many of these outer low-income suburbs actually have some of the highest car dependencies in the City. I've also heard that the transit system is becoming more of a transportation mode for the wealthy, which is what I guess you are alluding to. This could very well be due to the issues of the double fare where it's too expensive for some of these low-income people to take transit into the suburbs where a lot of the manufacturing jobs are and it is relatively economical for most of the affluent white-collar service employees to take transit to the core. Which only worsens the polarization of Toronto between the wealthy and poor. GO Transit in York Region has been doing some really interesting partnerships with YRT by charging a $0.25 fare for transferring from special YRT routes to GO Transit, but unfortunately these Routes, once again, cater to the service jobs that are very much downtown oriented.

I agree, there needs to be a change between how the agencies charge per distance. People often don't have the luxury of simply living closer to where they work, and thuse some may end up in the 905 or in the 416 and have to work in another area code. There are also circumstances like Sheppard Yonge, where many people in southern York Region are actually closer to it than people who live in downtown Toronto, yet the cost is double even though they are in effect "living close to where they work". As you said it is a social justice thing that needs to happen. I was referring to the current realities that will probably prevent that from happening, simply because it doesn't benefit the transit agencies, who ultimately have to spearhead these initiatives because of a dearth of vision and leadership within the Municipal, Provincial and Federal governments to deal with the issues. This isn't a stab at any one politician, I think we choose the government we deserve and there is a general lack of progress being done on both sides of the political spectrum.