Is the TTC beyond repair?

[Observer Walt]

299: I take your point, in a general sense, but the models are indeed very different. The airport can finance its improvements against future income. The TTC can't do that, as they, like other city transit systems, will never be able to generate a "profit" in the usual sense, therefore can't borrow against revenues.

The TTC is "OK", not on the verge of disaster. But certainly a better funding model is needed. Neither federal nor provincial governments are falling over themselves to step up with the funding which will be needed for meaningful improvements.

 

[junctionist]

No wonder the TTC is in dire straits; when even transit geeks are content to use such low standards of comparison (i.e., New York at its lowest point in history and other North American cities, most of which are notorious for their lack of transit culture), then why expect the citizenry at large to demand more?

The grim question was "is the TTC beyond repair?"

 

[299 bloor call control.]

that's clearly the case that the airport obviously has many more tools and is working in an environment where they can finance future improvements against future income -- but there's nothing to say the TTC can't do the same... but that becomes an issue that has been stated so long: long-term sustained funding for both operational and capital costs for the TTC is imperative to its role for the city. Maybe create TTC savings bonds?

 

[syn]

Considering how little funding they get and the service they provide, I'd say the TTC is quite efficient. They could benefit from new ideas, but overall they're fairly well run too.

 

[unimaginative2]

I'd really like to think that, but unfortunately I don't. Do they offer a better service than many American cities? Sure. Do they suffer severe funding problems? Absolutely. That doesn't mean there aren't major problems on the TTC that have absolutely nothing to do with funding levels. All of the streetcar lines, including ones with expensive private rights of way, run extremely slowly and unreliably. The fact that cars leave end terminals completely at random and some scheduled trips never show up has absolutely nothing to do with funding levels. It's simple operational management, and it's something that hundreds of other transit systems around the world do quite well.

Paradoxically, the TTC also has an unlimited budget mentality for capital construction, despite the siege mentality on operating costs. Subway construction in Toronto is far more expensive than either Montreal or Vancouver. The TTC refuses to examine any alternatives that can potentially save costs, such as cut-and-cover or elevated construction which are both used very effectively in Vancouver. They looked at elevating the VCC subway extension north of Steeles, determining that it was completely feasible, if slightly inconvenient. They dismissed it out of hand as inferior, without even looking at how much money it could save.

The TTC's biggest problem is that it's got the strongest case of the "Not Invented Here" syndrome I've ever heard of outside the military. Unless the TTC came up with the idea, it's inherently a bad one. They even developed their own wildly ineffective and out-of-date system for monitoring vehicle headways at great cost, even though there are dozens of proven off the shelf systems available.

I've come to believe that the best solution is a provincial takeover. It would mean that the TTC would never be suffering from shallow-pocketed governments, it could never again be a political pawn between the two levels of government, and it would be possible to look at real integration between transit systems across the region, which the TTC has rejected all along.

 

[CDL.TO]

I agree with all that you've said, except for one point...

They even developed their own wildly ineffective and out-of-date system for monitoring vehicle headways at great cost, even though there are dozens of proven off the shelf systems available

In all fairness, the CIS system was developed and implemented in the 1970s. I'm sure it was very up-to-date at the time and I am really doubtful that there were ANY off-the-shelf systems in existence at the time (especially since GPS wasn't available until decades later).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

unimaginative:

I've come to believe that the best solution is a provincial takeover. It would mean that the TTC would never be suffering from shallow-pocketed governments, it could never again be a political pawn between the two levels of government, and it would be possible to look at real integration between transit systems across the region, which the TTC has rejected all along.

That presumes decision making in that provincial body, particularly spending priorities, would be made without consideration to electoral boundaries.

AoD

 

[St. Even]

Well there was talk of the province taking over the TTC awhile back, though i don't think it was anything beyond ponderance... However, I think it would be best if the GTTA took over all the GTA transit systems and amalgamated them into one. When our cities are so fluid already, we shouldn't have such a mishmash of transit systems... Vancouver did the right thing, and hell, even Edmonton, with a similar situation with three operating transit companies, deals with interregional transit better than Toronto.

The thought of the GTTA taking over all transit systems is scary. Dalton McGuinty has shown nothing but contempt for this new agency by stealing their thunder at every chance, not letting the GTTA actually do anything. We've created another level of bureaucracy that is already bogged down in politics and it hasn't even done anything yet. I can't see a super GTTA in charge of "everything everywhere" actually looking at improving service on the Queen car, or the Dufferin because there's no political gain for a regional agency to focus on the local routes, especially within Toronto. Sure, we'd get probably get a subway to Wasaga Beach, (don't laugh) but good luck catching a bus to get you to the subway. I think we'd see a lot of empty vehicles in low density corridors in the burbs and longer and longer waits for routes in the city. I'd like to see the GTTA focus on rail, and non-core-oriented travel -- the regional stuff, but obviously in full co-operation with T.O. I just don't see it working.

 

[lordmandeep]

Well the subway system is in okay shape.

The Streetcars and Buses are a real mess.

 

[unimaginative2]

AoD: sure, that's an issue, but I really don't think it's that important. Certainly politics will likely play a role in large capital projects, but that's already true today. On a more operational level, there's no way that the political level of the provincial government would bother playing around with bus routes. That would clearly, for better or worse, be run by the transit bureaucrats.

 

[JasonParis]

If the GTTA were to run EVERYTHING, I'd only support it if service was based on ridership, not population. Otherwise, Toronto will get screwed.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree, Darkstar, but I think it would be. In York Region transit, for example, you don't see them stringing endless routes up around Keswick at the expensive of the Yonge corridor.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Keswick could use beefed up service, though...