Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[reaperexpress]

This is what we should be doing. Other jurisdictions allow the left turns to occur at the end of the light cycle. All our separated ROWs should have straight through movements followed by the signal conflicting turns.

The default order of signal phases has absolutely zero effect on the delay experienced by transit. It's the same green time, just at a different part of the cycle. To avoid getting caught delayed by left turn phases, streetcars need the ability to move the left-turn phase on-demand using Phase Rotation or Phase Insertion, which I described in this post in the Traffic Signals thread. Toronto's priority system is capable of doing both, but Transportation Services hardly ever approves either one. There is currently only 1 intersection in Toronto where phase insertion is enabled to allow streetcars to avoid delays from the left turn signals: Spadina & Lakeshore. The signal can serve streetcars both before and after the left turn phase, depending on when the streetcar shows up. Unfortunately that's the only priority feature enabled there (streetcars are not allowed to extend the green for Spadina or shorten the green for Lakeshore) so streetcar delays are still very high at the intersection.

 

[smallspy]

There is currently only 1 intersection in Toronto where phase insertion is enabled to allow streetcars to avoid delays from the left turn signals: Spadina & Lakeshore.

Is Lakeshore and Bathurst also not set up for phase insertion? I've seen streetcars given priority in at least 3 of the 4 phases of the cycle.

Dan

 

[reaperexpress]

Is Lakeshore and Bathurst also not set up for phase insertion? I've seen streetcars given priority in at least 3 of the 4 phases of the cycle.

Yes, Bathurst & Fleet/Lakeshore uses phase insertion to let the 509 turn across Fleet and Lakeshore to/from Bathurst. But that's a phase that's required in order for the streetcar to turn through a complicated intersection. I was talking specifically about phases which purely exist to reduce streetcar delay related to left turn phases across the tracks, which are not strictly necessary for the streetcar to pass through the intersection and are therefore less likely for Transportation Services to approve.

 

[steveintoronto]

...Toronto's priority system is capable of doing both, but Transportation Services hardly ever approves either one. There is currently only 1 intersection in Toronto where phase insertion is enabled to allow streetcars to avoid delays from the left turn signals: Spadina & Lakeshore. The signal can serve streetcars both before and after the left turn phase, depending on when the streetcar shows up. Unfortunately that's the only priority feature enabled there (streetcars are not allowed to extend the green for Spadina or shorten the green for Lakeshore) so streetcar delays are still very high at the intersection.

Was there not talk 'from high places' of this becoming allowed? And has it proven to be a hollow assurance if so?

It's incredibly reassuring to read of the Ion apparently doing so well by recent posts above, and thus multiples more grating that Toronto just can't seem to get 'priority' right, in more ways than one.

"Vision Zero" means running blind to Toronto masters.

 

[nfitz]

iON not being Presto enabled is still a disappointment though.

Please tell me it at least takes debit or credit!

Hmm, I wonder how they are going to deal with the discounted fares for those using GO Trains then? Will there be a conductor on board, or do you have to knock on the driver's door?

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Please tell me it at least takes debit or credit!

Hmm, I wonder how they are going to deal with the discounted fares for those using GO Trains then? Will there be a conductor on board, or do you have to knock on the driver's door?

The ION stations all have Ticket Vending Machines that accept debit and credit.

 

[nfitz]

The ION stations all have Ticket Vending Machines that accept debit and credit.

Ah, that will make my life easier!

How do they handle the discount from transferring from GO trains?

 

[timio]

Ah, that will make my life easier!

How do they handle the discount from transferring from GO trains?

"GO Transit riders with a valid Presto card can have a Connect-to-GO flag set on their EasyGO fare card. When you tap to board the bus, the full fare will be deducted from your balance. When you tap on a device at the Central Station ION stop, your card will be reimbursed.
To have the Connect-to-GO flag set on your EasyGO fare card, you will need to provide your Presto card number"

From: https://www.grt.ca/en/fares-passes/easygo-fare-card-faqs.aspx

 

[nfitz]

"GO Transit riders with a valid Presto card can have a Connect-to-GO flag set on their EasyGO fare card. When you tap to board the bus, the full fare will be deducted from your balance. When you tap on a device at the Central Station ION stop, your card will be reimbursed.
To have the Connect-to-GO flag set on your EasyGO fare card, you will need to provide your Presto card number"

From: https://www.grt.ca/en/fares-passes/easygo-fare-card-faqs.aspx

Ah, that must be new.

Hang on ... what's stopping anyone heading to downtown Kitchener, getting the flag set, and simply tapping on those devices at that station, rather than going an extra stop or two to their destination. And paying only 50¢ instead of the usual $2.76?

That's only to GO. I thought the 50¢ fare was To and From Kitchener GO?

As I'll only be doing it irregularly though, and probably mostly on business, the actual amount or wherever it's Presto or not isn't particularly important. If it takes credit/debit then that's good.

Hmm, reading that FAQ - is that still current? There's some very blatant mistruths there ... "Presto could not provide many of the functionalities that the Region deemed essential for our system including the ability to accept payment on MobilityPLUS vehicles, the ability to integrate a U-Pass program and the ability to issue machine readable paper tickets from fare vending machines " ... given that Presto is doing ALL of those things in Toronto, then I'm not sure copying their internal justifications from years ago is appropriate!

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Ah, that must be new.

Hang on ... what's stopping anyone heading to downtown Kitchener, getting the flag set, and simply tapping on those devices at that station, rather than going an extra stop or two to their destination. And paying only 50¢ instead of the usual $2.76?

That's only to GO. I thought the 50¢ fare was To and From Kitchener GO?

As I'll only be doing it irregularly though, and probably mostly on business, the actual amount or wherever it's Presto or not isn't particularly important. If it takes credit/debit then that's good.

I think the device is intended to be located near the new Transit hub once that is built (though they should at least put one at the current train station even if it's temporary). It's supposed to be a 50¢ fare to ride GRT to/from the GO station in Kitchener for commuters who take GO.

Hmm, reading that FAQ - is that still current? There's some very blatant mistruths there ... "Presto could not provide many of the functionalities that the Region deemed essential for our system including the ability to accept payment on MobilityPLUS vehicles, the ability to integrate a U-Pass program and the ability to issue machine readable paper tickets from fare vending machines " ... given that Presto is doing ALL of those things in Toronto, then I'm not sure copying their internal justifications from years ago is appropriate!

Those functionalities weren't available with Presto when the Region put out an RFP for an Electronic Fare Management System in 2014.

 

[nfitz]

Those functionalities weren't available with Presto when the Region put out an RFP for an Electronic Fare Management System in 2014.

It wasn't operational at the time, but that it was planned was clearly documented in the publicly released contract between TTC and Metrolinx two years earlier. The comment at the time, simply showed that Region of Waterloo staff had not done their homework.

That they are still repeating this mistruth five years later demonstrates gross ignorance!

 

[timio]

I think the device is intended to be located near the new Transit hub once that is built (though they should at least put one at the current train station even if it's temporary). It's supposed to be a 50¢ fare to ride GRT to/from the GO station in Kitchener for commuters who take GO.

It would be a bit awkward in the current scenario if you're transferring from a bus to the GO train when the nearest bus stop is a few blocks from the Central Station stop. On occasion, I take the EB 204 to the 6:05. Given the 2 block run from the bus to the ION stop and another 2 block run to the GO station in about 6 minutes. Not gonna happen.

 

[KevinT]

It also doesn't help if you connect from GRT to a GO bus at another transfer point like Laurier or Sportsworld. Or is the discount only for train connections regardless?

 

[nfitz]

It also doesn't help if you connect from GRT to a GO bus at another transfer point like Laurier or Sportsworld. Or is the discount only for train connections regardless?

Only for trains.

 

[ShonTron]

It also doesn't help if you connect from GRT to a GO bus at another transfer point like Laurier or Sportsworld. Or is the discount only for train connections regardless?

This was the pre-Presto policy for all 905 agencies: the discount GO fare was only valid to or from a GO train station, not to any other bus stop served by GO. Brampton Transit applied it liberally: if you were using co-fare to or from Bramalea GO, it was valid for 407 buses as well as the GO Train and “Train-Bus,” 7 days a week, while other systems would only honour it for rail connections.

GO Transit would have had a hard time configuring Presto to only accept co-fares at GO train stations, so it opened it up to any transfer at any location as long as Presto was used for all fares.

Had GRT adopted Presto, this would have likely been the same policy.