Intercity Bus Services

[reaperexpress]

So could orleans express or flixbus just file a permit to the Quebec transport government if they want to provide service from Toronto to Montreal and Quebec City?

Sure they could request a permit, but I doubt the province would grant them since Megabus already has a permit for the Toronto-Montreal route, and Orléans Express already has permits for both of the Montreal-Québec routes (north shore and south shore). The route permit system that used to exist in Ontario was explicitly for the purpose of creating monopolies, and I assume the current Québec system is the same.

There are cases where two operators connect the same cities, such as how both Maheux and Orléans Express run from Ottawa to Montréal. But in that case they take significantly different routes (north shore and south shore, respectively) so they are presumably considered to be sufficiently distinct to not count as direct competition against each other. From downtown Ottawa to downtown Montréal, Maheux is nearly an hour slower, so they're only really competitive for trips to/from the north shore where Orléans Express doesn't run.

 

[stevensontransit]

Sure they could request a permit, but I doubt the province would grant them since Megabus already has a permit for the Toronto-Montreal route, and Orléans Express already has permits for both of the Montreal-Québec routes (north shore and south shore). The route permit system that used to exist in Ontario was explicitly for the purpose of creating monopolies, and I assume the current Québec system is the same.

There are cases where two operators connect the same cities, such as how both Maheux and Orléans Express run from Ottawa to Montréal. But in that case they take significantly different routes (north shore and south shore, respectively) so they are presumably considered to be sufficiently distinct to not count as direct competition against each other. From downtown Ottawa to downtown Montréal, Maheux is nearly an hour slower, so they're only really competitive for trips to/from the north shore where Orléans Express doesn't run.

As for the montreal-new york corridor, two different carriers does serve the route - flixbus/greyhound and trailways.

I also don't like how megabus that goes to montreal doesn't serve the gare du autocars montreal and instead stops near bonaventure station. With megabus at least moving into the gare du autocars or having an orleans express providing service from toronto to montreal would provide toronto riders better connections for coaches to quebec city, trois rivieres, and sherbrooke. Back in early december 2024, I went from toronto to quebec city by bus but I had to ride the megabus to montreal, ride a short metro trip from bonaventure station to beri uqam station and board an orleans express bus straight to quebec city.

 

[nfitz]

So could orleans express or flixbus just file a permit to the Quebec transport government if they want to provide service from Toronto to Montreal and Quebec City?

I don't read that they need a permit to operate from section 4, other than from from the feds. And 5 surely applies if it's a local service operated by an out-of-province provider, not an inter-provincial service.

8 says a province may issue an interprovincial safety certificate - and that certificate is good anywhere in Canada. So if Ontario does that certificate, it's good in Quebec.

I'd say that they Ontario firms merely need to apply to the feds. Which I'd think would do a pro-forma issue of a licence to an already licenced company in their own jurisdiction - if they were being honest when they said all barriers to free trade have been removed.

 

[stevensontransit]

I don't read that they need a permit to operate from section 4, other than from from the feds. And 5 surely applies if it's a local service operated by an out-of-province provider, not an inter-provincial service.

8 says a province may issue an interprovincial safety certificate - and that certificate is good anywhere in Canada. So if Ontario does that certificate, it's good in Quebec.

I'd say that they Ontario firms merely need to apply to the feds. Which I'd think would do a pro-forma issue of a licence to an already licenced company in their own jurisdiction - if they were being honest when they said all barriers to free trade have been removed.

what if it's a quebec firm like orleans express, then that means they're clear of most hurdles to operate into ontario cities like toronto?

 

[reaperexpress]

With megabus at least moving into the gare du autocars or having an orleans express providing service from toronto to montreal would provide toronto riders better connections for coaches to quebec city, trois rivieres, and sherbrooke.

Orléans Express does technically operate from Toronto to Montréal, but that's with a transfer in Ottawa so it's incredibly uncompetitive against the direct trip on Megabus.

The Toronto leg is nominally operated by Red Arrow, but Keolis owns both brands so from a customer perspective, Orléans Express and the Ontario portion of Red Arrow are now effectively the same thing.

 

[stevensontransit]

Orléans Express does technically operate from Toronto to Montréal, but that's with a transfer in Ottawa so it's incredibly uncompetitive against the direct trip on Megabus.

Yeah that loses out to Megabus badly.

 

[lenaitch]

The feds did say they have now eliminated all the federal barriers to international trade. Perhaps someone should simply start operating with their existing Ontario registration and see if the feds put a barrier up to their operation! If Quebec challenges them, then they'd easily get an injunction to continue operations while it's in the courts.

I don't know all of what the feds have done but the existence of a regulation, requirement for a permit or operating licence, etc. isn't, in and of itself, a "barrier to [interprovincial] trade". Governments, both federal and provincial, are still free to regulate commerce.

It could simply be a matter of nobody seeing a business model.

 

[nfitz]

what if it's a quebec firm like orleans express, then that means they're clear of most hurdles to operate into ontario cities like toronto?

Offhand I don't know what the Ontario hurdles are, that would not be already met by their Quebec licence.

But yes, I'd think so.

 

[stevensontransit]

Offhand I don't know what the Ontario hurdles are, that would not be already met by their Quebec licence.

But yes, I'd think so.

Thanks for your info.

 

[Urban Sky]

Technically Quebec isn't forbidding routes that originate outside the province, they just require those routes to get the same permits as operators within Quebec - which the Province generally doesn't grant if there's already an operator on the route. In practice they're definitely hindering the interpovincial travel, but it would be quite difficult to challenge them on it because any kind of permit is inherently a hindrance and there are plenty of other permits they require regardless as the road authority.


Do we know why Maritime Bus lost their permit to operate in Québec? I don't imagine Quebec actually revoked it, since there's no Québecois carrier running that route anyway. Crossing provincial borders isn't otherwise an issue for them - they operate in NB, NS and PEI.

I wonder if it's just lack of initiative - Maritime Bus figures that the number of passengers they'd gain by connecting to the rest of Canada isn't worth the operating cost of driving between Edmunston and Rivière-du-Loup

Not sure if this isn’t just a misconception, but my understanding is that nothing of the status of Maritime Bus in Quebec has changed, but that Maritime Bus insists on operating all the way to Quebec City rather than forcing its passengers in Rivières-du-Loup in the dead of the night. Therefore, a return to the status ante Covid would be possible, if it was desired by the operatir in question…

 

[reaperexpress]

I did another one of my surveys of bus service in the Ottawa-Toronto corridor. Several changes since the last one:
- Red Arrow is now operating under the Orléans Express brand, which means ordinary 56-passenger coach buses rather than luxury buses, and no more catering service. However, they've increased service to 4/day, with two new trips from Pearson Airport to Ottawa via Pioneer Village Station and STC
- Flixbus has dramatically increased service frequency, now running 16 buses per day, of which 5 travel via Peterborough.
- OnEx is new to the corridor since my last summary. I've ridden it and it seems pretty decent. My main complaint is that it makes a detour to Kanata en route, which is not on the way between Kingston and Ottawa Tremblay Station. On my trip only 2 people disembarked there, vs 40+ in Ottawa.
- OurBus seems to have left the corridor, so the total number of carriers remain steady at 5.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OPIGuqwWnrwaByM6H3ZpA-Uu2TzUVxIj0PAk3rKZvhA/edit?usp=sharing

Via is only operating 55% of the total seats in the corridor, down from 71% in 2022. This is mostly due to the increase in Flixbus service.

 

[Mihairokov]

My main complaint is that it makes a detour to Kanata en route, which is not on the way between Kingston and Ottawa Tremblay Station. On my trip only 2 people disembarked there, vs 40+ in Ottawa.

Interesting because on a lot of VIA trips it feels like Fallowfield has more disembarking than Tremblay. Guess that's the difference in clientele.

 

[Allandale25]

Great to see.

This map depicts Canada’s current public transport network, including intercity and regional motorcoach, ferry, passenger rail and intercommunity bus routes. Information about each carrier, rail service, and transit agency can be found by clicking on the route or service area. Links to schedules, fares, and reservations are provided where available.

This ArcGIS map is maintained by geographer Sean Marshall, with support from Transport Action Canada. It is intended to serve as a starting point for journey planning and research. The map is updated quarterly with new routes and service changes submitted by operators and passengers, but we can not guarantee that it is authoritative. Please use this form to submit updates. [See the page for the link]

Canada Intercity Transportation Map

This map depicts Canada's current public transport network, including intercity and regional motorcoach, ferry, passenger rail and intercommunity bus routes.

www.transportaction.ca

 

[Urban Sky]

How about also do a chart from Toronto to Ottawa as well?

How about phrasing a kind request so that it actually sounds like a kind request?

 

[ssiguy2]

Just got back from my Toronto/London trip yesterday and had a wonderful time. Spent the first week in Toronto and then headed to London. I was going to go by VIA but my sister was picking me up and I had no confidence in VIA being on-time. This wasn't helped by the fact that it was going to cost me nearly twice as much as the bus so Megabus it was.

The trip was comfortable and pleasant and done in 2 hours just as stated. Even though traffic on the Gardiner was heavy we still did OK and managed to fly by a GO commuter train truly exemplifying how slow they can be. The traffic on the 401 from the 427 to Milton was very heavy but the HOV lanes meant we passed nearly everybody and ditto thru K/W/C.

Until VIA gets a frequent, affordable, fast, and reliable service, I can't imagine why one would take it over the bus especially with London being served by several different bus companies.