Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[Bojaxs]

The CP express between Toronto and Montreal was cancelled due to lack of demand. That would suggest that trucking it directly is cheaper.

By "express" I'm assuming you mean a train that goes solely between Toronto- Montreal. Such a train isn't necessary.
I can't speak for CPKC's operations, I work for CN. We have a148 train coming into Brampton intermodal from Chicago every day. The 148 goes from Chicago to Halifax (149 in the reverse direction). Montreal is naturally the next destination after Toronto for the 148. So basically we have a Montreal bound train in the yard everyday. Running an express train between Toronto and Montreal isn't necessary. I'm guessing CPKC realised this as well and that's why they ended the express service. But no doubt in my mind they run a train to Montreal everyday.

 

[Coolibop]

From the CBC article:

I'm curious what this is in reference to... Spadina/University extention, Eglinton Crosstown + West extension are the only projects I can think of that have tunelling completed. The Bloor/Danforth (line 2) extension seems stalled at the 401, and the Ontario Line, Sheppard East, and Yonge North haven't even started. Surely there are many places on earth (places with difficult terrain; e.g. Mountains) where tunnelling is more a norm - And therefore, where the experts would be? I don't think Ontario exports its tunnelling expertise?

Has anyone ever challenged this 'fact'? I could not find any source of how they arrived at that figure...

I see Doug is having a lot of fun with his Pixie Dust this morning.

Doug actually stated some months ago (can't find the source, it was a video of him making another announcement related to highways) that they were working on the largest [highway] project (maybe in the world)...I'd put money on this being the project he was referring to.

Image the additional mess on the 401 during the 10 years it would take to actually build this.

10 years? Who in the Metrolinx communications department took over your account?

Well this makes Fords plan of subways to Pickering and my plan for subways to Mississauga seem super sensible.

I've mentioned it before, and the more I think about it, the subways to Pickering comment is really a political play to appease those in a provincially conservative riding held by our finance minister (not to mention ties with the mayor who is a member of the conservative party afaik), and also could be confused with what was GO RER, a subway like service from Pickering to downtown Toronto.

 

[MrGoose]

This is so fucking stupid. For 50 billion dollars build an elevated quad track over / next to the 401/Gardiner/ DVP/416 and get high speed rail running between Windsor, London, KW, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

It's utterly bizarre. Good grief, if you are dropping that kind of money, you do it on the Gardiner/DVP or build a completely new alignment. Not widen one of the biggest highways in the world, that already overwhelms intersecting arteries.

It only serves as a Toronto bypass - and we already have one of those.

This sounds more like an election goodie - that will be stalled to death after the election. Or descoped to add a couple of extra lanes between the 409 and 427.

Yeah, I don't think any Federal partner is going to want to sign on to this.

The likely outcome, if any, of this proposal is that it will be reworked a few times until it eventually dwindles down to being a few tunneled express segments around key interchanges.

 

[grammin]

Given my long and lengthy experience of using this section of highway, I can categorically say that I would NEVER drive unwittingly into a 20km stretch of inescapable underground road with my fellow commuters.

 

[nfitz]

This is so fucking stupid. For 50 billion dollars build an elevated quad track over / next to the 401/Gardiner/ DVP/416 and get high speed rail running between Windsor, London, KW, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.

I'd assume the entire thing would be financed by the redevelopment of existing land on the ground, that will be replaced by the tunnel. I don't see a way to similarly finance HSR.

 

[afransen]

I agree. This tunneling under 14 lanes of highway is ridiculous and, even if you had all the money in the world ,the logistics of hauling away the ground would be insurmountable. Yes, this is an election promise and will never get done ala Wynne's HSR to London but there is a very legitimate concern about the loss of productivity due to Toronto's chocking traffic. The productivity concerns, however, are due goods not being delivered on time and not the workers. Therefore, the only way this would make sense is for an elevated structure along the 401 with 6 lanes................2 for passenger rail and 4 exclusively for the use of transport trucks and interchanges only a key points ie McCowan, DVP/404, 400, 407,and 427.

I think we need to discard the idea of running rail along the 401. This is just a silly fig leaf to make the idea seem less car oriented and greener. Cross-town rail is a good idea, but it doesn't belong next to car lanes on an elevated 401. Take the same money and extend Line 4, and for a more GO-like crosstown line, we could have work on some elevated Ontario Line-esque line with wider stop spacing to connect the various radial lines and major trip generators.

 

[MrGoose]

I'd assume the entire thing would be financed by the redevelopment of existing land on the ground, that will be replaced by the tunnel. I don't see a way to similarly finance HSR.

Financed by the redevelopment of land around the high speed stations

 

[rdaner]

This announcement was truly surprising! My only relevant thoughts are that a ‘transport’ tunnel along that r-o-w is an interesting idea but many have pointed out valid obstacles. I lived in Central Boston during the height of the Big Dig so know more than I ever wanted to about tunnelling!

1) As has been pointed out it is the interchanges that are absurdly expensive whereas basic tunnels are quite reasonable.

2) Tolling is a must!

3) This does bring up the possibility of using it and generating income from the transport of utilities such as VIA/GO, hydro, oil, freight trains that would have protection from our climate.

But all of this is moot as one could just buy back the 407 and remove the tolls to drastically (in the medium-term) relieve pressure on the 401. When I read about this this morning I recalled that a Qatari delegation is in town so I wondered if that has Ford dreaming about easy money for bizarre projects!

 

[Bordercollie]

This announcement was truly surprising! My only relevant thoughts are that a ‘transport’ tunnel along that r-o-w is an interesting idea but many have pointed out valid obstacles. I lived in Central Boston during the height of the Big Dig so know more than I ever wanted to about tunnelling!

1) As has been pointed out it is the interchanges that are absurdly expensive whereas basic tunnels are quite reasonable.

2) Tolling is a must!

3) This does bring up the possibility of using it and generating income from the transport of utilities such as VIA/GO, hydro, oil, freight trains that would have protection from our climate.

But all of this is moot as one could just buy back the 407 and remove the tolls to drastically (in the medium-term) relieve pressure on the 401. When I read about this this morning I recalled that a Qatari delegation is in town so I wondered if that has Ford dreaming about easy money for bizarre projects!

Finch hydro corridor is available, so is expanding the CP Belleville Sub

 

[innsertnamehere]

I wouldn't be surprised if this "401 tunnel" actually runs on the Finch Hydro corridor. It could allow a decent chunk of cut-and-cover construction, especially through the flatter parts in Scarborough, and would simplify interchange construction as you don't have to make expensive tie-ins to the existing 401 interchanges.

Regardless of this project's fantastical chances, the engineering study will be interesting at the very least.

 

[Bordercollie]

I wouldn't be surprised if this "401 tunnel" actually runs on the Finch Hydro corridor. It could allow a decent chunk of cut-and-cover construction, especially through the flatter parts in Scarborough, and would simplify interchange construction as you don't have to make expensive tie-ins to the existing 401 interchanges.

Regardless of this project's fantastical chances, the engineering study will be interesting at the very least.

It would be smarter to extend the Finch LRT east to Scarborough and on to Oshawa. There needs to be almost two types, short and medium distance. Express from Humber to Finch w, to.Finch to Don mills, as well as local. This could be accomplished by building sidings at stations.

Need to make transit more convenient. And it has to be faster than the bus today.

The problem with the 401 is that it's not directional depending on the day. Sometimes reverse commuting is actually worse.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

By "express" I'm assuming you mean a train that goes solely between Toronto- Montreal. Such a train isn't necessary.
I can't speak for CPKC's operations, I work for CN. We have a148 train coming into Brampton intermodal from Chicago every day. The 148 goes from Chicago to Halifax (149 in the reverse direction). Montreal is naturally the next destination after Toronto for the 148. So basically we have a Montreal bound train in the yard everyday. Running an express train between Toronto and Montreal isn't necessary. I'm guessing CPKC realised this as well and that's why they ended the express service. But no doubt in my mind they run a train to Montreal everyday.

He's talking about the CP "Expressway" service which was a trailer-on-flatcar/piggyback service which are dead in Canada with the exception of a few remote access trains, not a typical intermodal train with ISO containers.

I think CP operated this as more or less a unit train which ran on a strict schedule (it had so, so truckers knew when to meet the train), it had dedicated terminals in both cities (the Toronto one was in Milton, I think the Montreal terminal was somewhere in the West Island). The whole operation was set up for quick turnarounds (ie they didn't take time to build the train), for instance they used special flatcars licensed from CSX which were designed for quick loading and unloading of trailers "circus style" (so no cranes).

The nature of the service meant the train was fairly complex and expensive to run. It had to run to a published schedule no matter how many trailers it was actually carrying (a trucker couldn't drop a trailer at one end and be told it was a 72 hour wait for the next train out when there was another trucker at the other end waiting for the trailer). From what I understand the service also pretty much needed priority over everything, even the hotshot intermodals, to be time competitive with the 401 (even the train sitting in a siding for a little bit could erase the time savings from avoiding Toronto, and you didn't want truckers waiting for a late train to pick up their trailers). I think the reduction in rail traffic after the financial crisis was what ultimately prompted CP to kill it in the early 00s (its worth nothing CP also attempted to run this service to Southwestern Ontario and the US Midwest years earlier but couldn't make it work).

 

[Bordercollie]

He's talking about the CP "Expressway" service which was a trailer-on-flatcar/piggyback service which are dead in Canada with the exception of a few remote access trains, not a typical intermodal train with ISO containers.

I think CP operated this as more or less a unit train which ran on a strict schedule (it had so, so truckers knew when to meet the train), it had dedicated terminals in both cities (the Toronto one was in Milton, I think the Montreal terminal was somewhere in the West Island). The whole operation was set up for quick turnarounds (ie they didn't take time to build the train), for instance they used special flatcars licensed from CSX which were designed for quick loading and unloading of trailers "circus style" (so no cranes).

The nature of the service meant the train was fairly complex and expensive to run. It had to run to a published schedule no matter how many trailers it was actually carrying (a trucker couldn't drop a trailer at one end and be told it was a 72 hour wait for the next train out when there was another trucker at the other end waiting for the trailer). From what I understand the service also pretty much needed priority over everything, even the hotshot intermodals, to be time competitive with the 401 (even the train sitting in a siding for a little bit could erase the time savings from avoiding Toronto, and you didn't want truckers waiting for a late train to pick up their trailers). I think the reduction in rail traffic after the financial crisis was what ultimately prompted CP to kill it in the early 00s (its worth nothing CP also attempted to run this service to Southwestern Ontario and the US Midwest years earlier but couldn't make it work).

But this is the kind of service we need to offset traffic on the 401.

Couldn't they not do something similar to the Eurostar where the trucks roll on and roll off? The drivers can go along for the Ride or pass it on at the other end.

 

[BMO]

This would be interesting if the idea was to bury the 401 and build affordable/public housing on the freed-up land above with transit baked into the plan to create transit-oriented development across 55km across Toronto. Would eliminate a major blight and could re-calibrate the corridor towards a more sustainable path. Bonus points because Doug can still get his construction cronies and developer cronies paid so he can avoid the mob taking him out after the greenbelt fiasco.