Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[Towered]

It failed largely because of the recession, and then amalgamation.

Nah man - nobody wants to work in these dull areas that have no scene, no vibe, no pizzazz.

 

[Civdis]

Agreed. The west end traffic is insane. And there's no DVP equivalent to get ppl in and out the core to go north. The 427 is too far west for it to be an alternative.

I would say the tunnel should be a southern extension of the 400/Black Creek. At least that way you can get to Barrie almost directly.

I recall a mayoral candidate in 2010 proposing this, but his name slips my mind.
Obviously any highway ideas won't be popular on UT, but for the sake of goods and services and growing population, it's necessary.

Transit and cycling will never be able to help everyone. And not everyone can easily move closer to where they worked. That's just the reality.

I do like the boldness off Doug Ford to propose some kind of highway within Toronto. I just wish it was a more effective highway proposal than a tunnel.

You get my point exactly and your handle is RapidTransit, love it. We need a diversified transportation network. I agree that an extension of the 400 rather than the Allen is the way to go and was actually planned at one time. It would take a ton of traffic off of both the DVP and 427/Gardner. I knew my comment would be controversial on this forum, but if we are going to build highway infrastructure, let's do it in a way that makes sense. BTW, a hybrid tunnel / trench design like they did on the 401 / Herb Gray Parkway to the Gordie Howe Bridge in Windsor could be a good solution.

 

[just east of the creek]

We were having this discussion while sitting in endless traffic on the 40 here in Montreal. The question was the cost of whatever tunnel creation Emperor Ford has in mind vs the cost of expropriating land adjacent to the 401 to create a trucks only by pass with exits/entrances at 410/427/409/400/404, possibly the Allen and some where to the east? Kennedy perhaps. So far expropriation wins over a tunnel, both for build costs and long term maintenance costs.

 

[Sunnyside]

We were having this discussion while sitting in endless traffic on the 40 here in Montreal. The question was the cost of whatever tunnel creation Emperor Ford has in mind vs the cost of expropriating land adjacent to the 401 to create a trucks only by pass with exits/entrances at 410/427/409/400/404, possibly the Allen and some where to the east? Kennedy perhaps. So far expropriation wins over a tunnel, both for build costs and long term maintenance costs.

I don’t think expropriation is realistic, particularly on the central 427-404 section. We’re talking about very wealthy neighbourhoods that will have much to say, while being 2x the cost of most SFH’s, already going for ~$1M/piece.

If we’re stuck with the 401 as our only trunk highway, I would prefer we rationalize it rather than just expand it. As I’ve been thinking about how on gods green earth the MTO will widen Hamilton’s 403 and QEW, I see decking as particularly strong. 12 lanes on two levels (24 total) would narrow the 401 and add capacity. BUT— this would likely require a rebuild of basically everything. In the long term, restructuring beats a tunnel alone, but the disruption… well, we’re only discussing this because nothing else can absorb the traffic.

I’d say my endorsement of a tunnel hinges on A) underground feasibility (soil, river valleys) and B) multimodality (trucks and/or transit). The plan should have very little to do with commuting drivers at all, in any case- their volumes would drive scope creep despite being the easiest to shift onto other modes.

 

[Cobra]

Not sure if it was mentioned already, the Feds could totally come back and be willing to participate in the transit component of the project "only" and refuse the automobile part leaving the province on the hook for that. This would force Queen's Park had to take the Feds money for GO tunnels and abandon the rest

 

[nfitz]

I’d say my endorsement of a tunnel hinges on A) underground feasibility (soil, river valleys) and B) multimodality (trucks and/or transit). The plan should have very little to do with commuting drivers at all, in any case- their volumes would drive scope creep despite being the easiest to shift onto other modes.

I'd say it should hinge on a detailed cost-benefit analysis comparing to other road, rail, and tolling options - and the status quo.

And I'd bet that tolling would work, and reduce congestion city-wide (not just because people won't drive, but because it will increase the capacity of the existing infrastructure). Easy enough to make anything with 10 wheels or more free, so as not to impact shipping. Though I expect it will be decades before this is accepted by enough people to be politically viable.

 

[lenaitch]

I don’t think expropriation is realistic, particularly on the central 427-404 section. We’re talking about very wealthy neighbourhoods that will have much to say, while being 2x the cost of most SFH’s, already going for ~$1M/piece.

If we’re stuck with the 401 as our only trunk highway, I would prefer we rationalize it rather than just expand it. As I’ve been thinking about how on gods green earth the MTO will widen Hamilton’s 403 and QEW, I see decking as particularly strong. 12 lanes on two levels (24 total) would narrow the 401 and add capacity. BUT— this would likely require a rebuild of basically everything. In the long term, restructuring beats a tunnel alone, but the disruption… well, we’re only discussing this because nothing else can absorb the traffic.

I’d say my endorsement of a tunnel hinges on A) underground feasibility (soil, river valleys) and B) multimodality (trucks and/or transit). The plan should have very little to do with commuting drivers at all, in any case- their volumes would drive scope creep despite being the easiest to shift onto other modes.

Funneling truck traffic into a long tunnel and away from a surface route is a bad idea on top of a bad idea. Most tunnels prohibit hazardous commodities for a good reason, and there is a lot of placarded trucks out there.

 

[micheal_can]

One thing I thought years ago was an elevated express highway over the 401. Seems Ford kinda stole my idea.

The idea I had would be to deck the entire highway from roughly Milton to roughly Oshawa. The only exits would be other highways/

But, It was fantasy. It was a dream that if money was unlimited, it would be an idea that might work. To hear our Premier talk of it has me question all my other fantasy infrastructure.

To be serious, this solution is due to the lack of true expansions of transit. Most major metros the same size as Toronto have more rapid transit routes.They have more heavy rail routes. Many have HSR to other major cities. They accept their congestion, and they build other things to give people the option of not sitting in congestion.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but if we are going to build a new road tunnel, it should be to extend either the 400 or Allen Expressway downtown.

I generally agree with this, but even a new tunnel downtown would require massive land expropriation and demolition of multiple city blocks if you want to have functioning exits and on-ramps.

 

[Civdis]

TR

I generally agree with this, but even a new tunnel downtown would require massive land expropriation and demolition of multiple city blocks if you want to have functioning exits and on-ramps.

True, but I would minimize interchanges along the route. The purpose of this tunnel would be to divert traffic from the 427 and DVP and get it downtown. Maybe one or two interchanges along the way (St Clair, Bloor), in other words a "true expressway beneath the city with minimal impact on existing neighbourhoods.

 

[crs1026]

TR

True, but I would minimize interchanges along the route. The purpose of this tunnel would be to divert traffic from the 427 and DVP and get it downtown. Maybe one or two interchanges along the way (St Clair, Bloor), in other words a "true expressway beneath the city with minimal impact on existing neighbourhoods.

And what do we do with all the added vehicles that a tunnel will bring downtown? More underground parking to house them all?

We are already in a hole with more vehicles than the roads can handle. Let's stop digging.

- Paul

 

[Civdis]

And what do we do with all the added vehicles that a tunnel will bring downtown? More underground parking to house them all?

We are already in a hole with more vehicles than the roads can handle. Let's stop digging.

- Paul

A new route is not a trip generator in and of itself, it would provide relief to the 427, Gardiner and DVP. We need a multimodal transportation system with more redundancy built into it.

 

[Bojaxs]

Not sure if it was mentioned already, the Feds could totally come back and be willing to participate in the transit component of the project "only" and refuse the automobile part leaving the province on the hook for that. This would force Queen's Park had to take the Feds money for GO tunnels and abandon the rest

I feel that we should construct the 407 transitway before we seriously consider a transit tunnel under the 401.

 

[max]

TR

True, but I would minimize interchanges along the route. The purpose of this tunnel would be to divert traffic from the 427 and DVP and get it downtown. Maybe one or two interchanges along the way (St Clair, Bloor), in other words a "true expressway beneath the city with minimal impact on existing neighbourhoods.

You can't add more highway capacity into downtown without adding off ramps, they have to leave the highway somewhere. Your Bloor ramp will be jammed worse than Lawrence on the Allen and the merge onto the Gardiner/Lakeshore that I assume this would feed into would be worse then the Allen's next exit at Eglinton since there's already plenty of traffic coming down to there.

 

[DSCToronto]

TR

True, but I would minimize interchanges along the route. The purpose of this tunnel would be to divert traffic from the 427 and DVP and get it downtown. Maybe one or two interchanges along the way (St Clair, Bloor), in other words a "true expressway beneath the city with minimal impact on existing neighbourhoods.

Why do we want to get more traffic downtown and what will it do when it arrives there? If people need to get downtown then improve TRANSIT, if vehicles need to cross the city then build by-passes. Building a tunnel so that vehicles can get downtown (or pass through downtown) is simply stupid!