High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[denfromoakvillemilton]

GO to London is too far. London needs a proper RT system and and stronger connections to local areas.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

GO to London is too far. London needs a proper RT system and and stronger connections to local areas.

I agree but perhaps a "GO" like system could be implemented in the Greater London region, connecting the surrounding region to central London. Woodstock, St Thomas, and Tilsonburg all look like good candidates for this system

 

[Urban Sky]

I agree but perhaps a "GO" like system could be implemented in the Greater London region, connecting the surrounding region to central London. Woodstock, St Thomas, and Tilsonburg all look like good candidates for this system

Sure, but what exactly would such a commuter rail system achieve, which a BRT couldn’t (at a fraction of capital costs, operating costs, travel times and with a dramatically higher frequency and reliability/punctuality)?

 

[lrt's friend]

Sure, but what exactly would such a commuter rail system achieve, which a BRT couldn’t (at a fraction of capital costs, operating costs, travel times and with a dramatically higher frequency and reliability/punctuality)?

I totally agree. A rail solution only makes sense where demand is very high and congestion is a problem. You don't go from nothing to rail. There needs to be regional bus network first.

 

[Urban Sky]

I totally agree. A rail solution only makes sense where demand is very high and congestion is a problem. You don't go from nothing to rail. There needs to be regional bus network first.

Not only that: you’d need to change directions in order to get from St. Thomas or Tilsonburg to London...

 

[gweed123]

I agree but perhaps a "GO" like system could be implemented in the Greater London region, connecting the surrounding region to central London. Woodstock, St Thomas, and Tilsonburg all look like good candidates for this system

I think there's room for another service between GO and VIA. Comfier trains than GO (for the longer trip times), but not all of the bells and whistles like VIA (no drink/food service, for example). The rolling stock currently used on UPX would be a good candidate.

My personal preference would be to see GO only serve the contiguous GTHA (the Hamilton-Milton-Brampton-Newmarket-Stouffville-Oshawa arc), and have everything outside of that serviced by this new service. That would mean service to Barrie, Kitchener, Niagara Falls, London, and potentially points east of Oshawa would fall under this umbrella. With this service, it would also be possible for VIA to reduce service to those smaller in-between stops, and focus on linking major destinations.

 

[lrt's friend]

There is already four levels of train service in the GTA. Streetcars, subways, GO and VIA. I don't see there being a sufficient market for yet another level of service especially given that GO and VIA already share the same track and another level would have to share those same track yet again.

 

[ssiguy2]

Within 20 years a million people will live within a half hour of London. Added to this is that London, due to having no urban freeways or even semi-fast routes, the traffic is already hell. For any cities under 1 million in Canada, London has by far the worst traffic....……..there is no second place.

Commuter buses will certainly provide a needed service but once they get to the city boundaries they will crawl along like everyone else. This makes buses of limited value but makes the trains vastly more competitive. From Strathroy {pop 14,500} to London is at LEAST 40 minutes in rush hour but the VIA train goes from Strathroy to downtown London in just 21 minutes. Even on a Sunday at day break, skipping every light and stop sign along the way, there is no way in hell that one could drive the trip in 20 minutes. This doesn't make a rail service competitive but a downright God send literally cutting [people's commute times in half.

A reopening of the Port Stanley to London rail line goes right thru St.Thomas with 44,000 and only 20 km south of downtown. It also would be a huge time saver as there is no 4 lane road connecting the 2 and once they get to London they have to take the hell of Wellington Road where at it's busiest southern point carries 48,000 vehicles a day on a 4 lane road that is littered with lights.

London's lack of urban freeway combined with being a hub of DIRECT rail lines right to the downtown core from it's main commuter cities of Woodstock, Ingersol, St.Thomas,, and Strathroy makes a commuter rail service very viable.

 

[asher__jo]

Added to this is that London, due to having no urban freeways or even semi-fast routes, the traffic is already hell. For any cities under 1 million in Canada, London has by far the worst traffic....……..there is no second place.

Always amused when people cite a lack of urban freeways like it's a liability; Vancouver isn't doing so bad.

 

[gweed123]

There is already four levels of train service in the GTA. Streetcars, subways, GO and VIA. I don't see there being a sufficient market for yet another level of service especially given that GO and VIA already share the same track and another level would have to share those same track yet again.

There's currently 3 layers of service in the GTHA: Municipal transit providers, Metrolinx, and VIA.

I'm proposing that a new division be created within Metrolinx to manage that exurban market, much like how the UPX division was created to cater to that specific market.

And I think there is a market for it. GO's mandate has creeped beyond the GTHA, and I don't think their service type or their rolling stock is the best option for some of the markets they're serving.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Sure, but what exactly would such a commuter rail system achieve, which a BRT couldn’t (at a fraction of capital costs, operating costs, travel times and with a dramatically higher frequency and reliability/punctuality)?

Within 20 years a million people will live within a half hour of London. Added to this is that London, due to having no urban freeways or even semi-fast routes, the traffic is already hell. For any cities under 1 million in Canada, London has by far the worst traffic....……..there is no second place.

Commuter buses will certainly provide a needed service but once they get to the city boundaries they will crawl along like everyone else. This makes buses of limited value but makes the trains vastly more competitive. From Strathroy {pop 14,500} to London is at LEAST 40 minutes in rush hour but the VIA train goes from Strathroy to downtown London in just 21 minutes. Even on a Sunday at day break, skipping every light and stop sign along the way, there is no way in hell that one could drive the trip in 20 minutes. This doesn't make a rail service competitive but a downright God send literally cutting [people's commute times in half.

A reopening of the Port Stanley to London rail line goes right thru St.Thomas with 44,000 and only 20 km south of downtown. It also would be a huge time saver as there is no 4 lane road connecting the 2 and once they get to London they have to take the hell of Wellington Road where at it's busiest southern point carries 48,000 vehicles a day on a 4 lane road that is littered with lights.

London's lack of urban freeway combined with being a hub of DIRECT rail lines right to the downtown core from it's main commuter cities of Woodstock, Ingersol, St.Thomas,, and Strathroy makes a commuter rail service very viable.

Just as the GTA's GO network grew from a few short single decker trains running at peak to massive 12 coach long double decker trains running 20+ plus hours a day. London could start out with buses and move on to rail. It would never be on the level of the GTA but say 3 or 4 car single deck trains running at peak or hourly eventually.

London is the largest city in Ontario that is outside of any reasonable catchment area of the GTAH. Thus we should be looking at it as a regional centre.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Just as the GTA's GO network grew from a few short single decker trains running at peak to massive 12 coach long double decker trains running 20+ plus hours a day. London could start out with buses and move on to rail. It would never be on the level of the GTA but say 3 or 4 car single deck trains running at peak or hourly eventually.

London is the largest city in Ontario that is outside of any reasonable catchment area of the GTAH. Thus we should be looking at it as a regional centre.

*Cough* *Ottawa* *Cough*

 

[ericmacm]

Always amused when people cite a lack of urban freeways like it's a liability; Vancouver isn't doing so bad.

Vancouver can't be compared to London in this case because large amounts of people can still get around via the SkyTrain. London has no rapid transit and no true urban expressways. Its current plans for rapid transit are grossly inadequate, and there are no real plans for an urban expressway either.

In this case, the lack of an expressway is absolutely a liability.

 

[crs1026]

^It's that "last mile" thing again. One can theorise that people may want to commute to London, but where in London are they going and how will they get there once they get off the train? Are these daily commuters or just frequent daytrippers? (I suspect more of the latter)
I can certainly see frequent regional train service being useful, but I can't see a true "commuter" service arising. For many, their destination in London may be easier to reach by car than by train. The train tracks don't necessarily cross the city in a way that would assist many.
For now, getting their BRT off the ground and successful is enough of a challenge, and may change enough attitudes to lead to better things
.
- Paul

 

[asher__jo]

Vancouver can't be compared to London in this case because large amounts of people can still get around via the SkyTrain. London has no rapid transit and no true urban expressways. Its current plans for rapid transit are grossly inadequate, and there are no real plans for an urban expressway either.

In this case, the lack of an expressway is absolutely a liability.

Makes a compelling case to view lack of freeways as a positive, and a way to promote transit expansion.