High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[TheTigerMaster]

Indeed, VIA and anyone officially associated with them have offered no comments what-so-ever, at least in the public domain. Either pro or con. Radio silence is being strictly enforced.

Comment, if it is due, is for MPs and MPPs. What is conspicuous, even with mention of VIA (as well as GO) in the report, is how it would work in a *complementary* fashion, not a replacement one.

I did notice that the article authors did go out of their way to emphasize that they intended for VIA and RER to be complimentary. However, near the beginning of the report, they did say:

"In order to achieve service optimization, HSR and RER will interoperate between Toronto and Kitchener. It is also proposed that HSR replace VIA Rail on the Kitchener corridor, in order to ensure the route is not over-served; however, VIA Rail would still maintain a number of services in Southwestern Ontario. A codesharing agreement between VIA Rail and HSR would ensure that the rail system in Southwestern Ontario is seamless and integrated."

 

[steveintoronto]

It is also proposed that HSR replace VIA Rail on the Kitchener corridor, in order to ensure the route is not over-served; however, VIA Rail would still maintain a number of services in Southwestern Ontario. A codesharing agreement between VIA Rail and HSR would ensure that the rail system in Southwestern Ontario is seamless and integrated."

Indeed, but that would have to be approved by the Canadian Transport Commission. In the event, by the time HSR (or much more likely, HFR) is running, those feeder routes would already be off-loaded to the Province.

VIA have what are termed "mandated routes" which I believe are even beyond the CTC's purview, and would take either an Act of Parliament or the the Transport Minister to alter, not sure on that, since VIA lacks legislation to regulate it directly.

The more I read of the report, the more I read it as a 'cover story' for Collenette's QP HSR instigators to get what they need politically, and a *road-map* for rail reform in general. What cannot be escaped is building the basement before the structure goes up, and that involves changing the lay of the land with the Missing Link, and electrifying RER. This whole project as stated can't go ahead until both are done.They're prerequisites.

Perhaps not such a bad imposition of basics? It might have been the mood I was reading the report in today that allowed me to see that, but reading Collenette's background, he's been very pro-rail and pro-reform even before being the Fed Transport Minister. I think his agenda is just catching a lift on the HSR platform.

Something very positive might yet come from this, and it might be the mantle to expound both electrifying RER and the Missing Link, and perhaps setting the stage for VIA's HFR. HSR might be the cherry on the cake that proves unnecessary in the end.

 

[MisterF]

As far too often with your rants, I can't see them being backed up by any facts or can you find me any source where VIA has argued against the Ontario Liberals' HSR proposal in SWO?

Also, as for your continued rants against any passenger rail operations or investments outside the Corridor, you may want to look up what exactly happened 150 years ago and why this (your!) country celebrates it so enthusiastically this summer. You may ask a friend it you can't find a $10 bill in your wallet...

Indeed, Via has never specifically argued against the HSR proposal in southwestern Ontario that I've ever seen. There have been sensationalist headlines implying that Via is against it, but those have all been misleading at best.

I did notice that the article authors did go out of their way to emphasize that they intended for VIA and RER to be complimentary. However, near the beginning of the report, they did say:

"In order to achieve service optimization, HSR and RER will interoperate between Toronto and Kitchener. It is also proposed that HSR replace VIA Rail on the Kitchener corridor, in order to ensure the route is not over-served; however, VIA Rail would still maintain a number of services in Southwestern Ontario. A codesharing agreement between VIA Rail and HSR would ensure that the rail system in Southwestern Ontario is seamless and integrated."

Here's the recommended rail network in southwestern Ontario. They're recommending rationalizing Via service along the HSR route. Via trains would still run on the existing line through Stratford and Sarnia. Passengers going from those towns to Toronto would transfer onto a high speed train in London or Kitchener.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What cannot be escaped is building the basement before the structure goes up, and that involves changing the lay of the land with the Missing Link, and electrifying RER. This whole project as stated can't go ahead until both are done.They're prerequisites.

Why is the missing link a prerequisite? I didn't see it mentioned in the report.

 

[cplchanb]

Why is the missing link a prerequisite? I didn't see it mentioned in the report.

The missing link is essential so that it diverts cn traffic away from the critical crossover spots. If they are to operate on cn track which imo is going to be a big mistake as it is already they need to get the freight trains off

 

[Urban Sky]

Why is the missing link a prerequisite? I didn't see it mentioned in the report.

The missing link is essential so that it diverts cn traffic away from the critical crossover spots. If they are to operate on cn track which imo is going to be a big mistake as it is already they need to get the freight trains off

The problems at Bramalea or Silver Jct (Georgetown) still seem somewhat managable to me, but I really struggle to imagine how one could fiddle two (or even one) dedicated passenger tracks next to the existing 2 CN tracks at Brampton station. That's a problem which only insanely expensive tunneling (like in the 300 km/h fast Scenario A, where tunneling accounts for half of the $50 billion capital cost bill, if I recall correctly) - or of course the Missing Link - can solve...

 

[steveintoronto]

Why is the missing link a prerequisite? I didn't see it mentioned in the report.

Report uses the term "bypass".

Sean Marshall has an excellent blog on it at:
https://seanmarshall.ca/2017/05/19/a-need-for-high-speed-rail-reality/

Here is the IBI Report:

https://www.milton.ca/MeetingDocuments/Council/agendas2015/rpts2015/ENG-020-15 The Missing Link Final Report.pdf
pdf pg 5

pdf pg 18

From the High Speed Report:

pdf pg 26

 

[TOareaFan]

In my haste to post this I did not credit the source, they are not my words.....they are from SeanMarshall.ca

 

[steveintoronto]

Wynne tries to reignite unrequited love affair with high-speed rail: Walkom
There's something soothingly predictable about government promises to improve rail service. They are rarely fulfilled.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...-love-affair-with-high-speed-rail-walkom.html

 

[jje1000]

Hold on- this was back in 2014- was this environmental assessment never completed?

Environmental assessment ordered for Ontario high-speed rail
Route would connect Windsor, London, Kitchener-Waterloo and Toronto

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...ordered-for-ontario-high-speed-rail-1.2861890

So anyone know what happened to this environmental assessment?

 

[steveintoronto]

So anyone know what happened to this environmental assessment?

It never happened.

I'm amazed how gullible some communities are, however, and this does play right into their limited abilities to rationalize the believable from fantasy, a few exceptions besides.

From the London Free Press:

[...]
The head of Via, Yves Desjardins-Sicilianom, (sic) has been a critic of high-speed rail the past year, saying it would cost far more than creating a dedicated track for conventional passenger service without producing a correspondingly large benefit.

But asked Wednesday about high-speed rail in the London region, a company spokesperson said it could compliment (sic) the approach Via plans between Toronto and Montreal.

Via is trying to acquire from CN the segment between Waterloo and London to improve speed, reliability, frequency of trains and comfort, spokesperson Mariam Diaby said. “Via is committed to facilitating interconnection between its service and any future (high speed rail) service,” she wrote in response to Free Press questions.
[...]
But while he (Mayor Mike Bradley of Sarnia) likes high-speed rail, Bradley is skeptical it will come to pass. The Ontario government considered high-speed rail as early as 1990, when Bradley and then-mayor Tom Gosnell of London met with then-premier David Peterson.

“You could take all the reports on high-speed rails since then and use them as ties to build (a new) track,” Bradley said.
[...]

http://www.lfpress.com/2016/04/27/rail-needs-speed-not-own-track-group-says

I'll make the case yet again to 'build the access roads' before even considering building the dream. And that access road includes the Missing Link and electrification and establishment of RER.

It's my opinion that should also include doing the Relief Line in Toronto as an RER loop to not only relieve the TTC, but also Union Station and pathings through the USRC. If the Province wants to bore tunnels in the name of demand, then RER through-running mid-core Toronto and connected through either end to the existing RER network makes vastly more sense, and along with the Missing Link, provides far more opportunity to service the crushing need for the GTHA (and not just the Pape Entitlement).

What it won't do is attract more gullible voters in the nether-regions. (Beyond the present GO catchment area).

RER and HFR share the same signalling, control and track infrastructure needs. They make a perfect complement. (HFR will have a slightly higher running and maximum speed) HSR demands a vastly higher standard, and it actually worsens any practicable solution in many cases, let alone draining the coffers for a hare-trained scheme. There's no way, with the pricing models touted, that private enterprise would be interested in this, claims of "interest" to the contrary.

What does look very opportune and with guaranteed usage to underpin economic viability is the Missing Link, and the track for HFR, in fact they could/should be done together, or at least planned together, along with electrified RER.

But that won't satisfy the desperate need for votes by the Wynners.

 

[dowlingm]

As sceptical I am about HSR west of Toronto (and especially: west of London), I don't see much operational risks with crossing the border, provided that the service ends in Detroit: westbound, the US border checks could be performed upon arrival in Detroit, while eastbound, Canadian customs would be performed prior to boarding and departure with customers not cleared in time getting automatically bumped on the next train

This would rely on the US agreeing to Canada operating a preclearance facility on foreign soil (does Canada operate one anywhere? If so I am not aware of it) but the money would have to be forthcoming for CBSA to operate it. Look how difficult CBSA was about expanded Cascades for the 2010 Olympics - this would be multiple times more difficult to pull off.

 

[ssiguy2]

Well admittedly I shouldn't have said "bitching up a storm" but there is no questioning that VIA is against HSR. They continually say that high frequency rail is good enough whenever HSR is mentioned. In other words they are far more concerned with maintaining their monopoly than providing REAL improvements to SWO.

As for a stops in Guelph and Chatham, that would be a disaster. This is suppose to be HSR and the more stops there are, the slower the system becomes. HSR is not built for serving small centres but rather larger ones. The HSR I took in Italy went from Rome to Florence non-stop for the 250km trip making it in 70 minutes even though there are many sizeable towns/cities between the two.

 

[WislaHD]

Can someone convince me that this $19 Billion HSR is a good investment, when it'll apparently have fewer riders than the infamous Scarborough Subway? I really would like to support this proposal, but this is looking like a colossal waste of money to me. I can't reconcile spending that much money to transport so few people

This is a repeat of the Union Pearson Express if you ask me.

I don't buy people's comments that the dynamics of inter-city transportation are different. Yes, they are, but even using those metrics this line makes no business case.

Toronto-Ottawa-Monteal could.

 

[dowlingm]

Well admittedly I shouldn't have said "bitching up a storm" but there is no questioning that VIA is against HSR. They continually say that high frequency rail is good enough whenever HSR is mentioned. In other words they are far more concerned with maintaining their monopoly than providing REAL improvements to SWO.

How dare those wretches at VIA promote additional service deliverable with modest (by comparison) investment commensurate with past fed government track record versus a cock and bull promise from a prov government who haven't advanced HSR an inch since *the last time they promised it to SWO*