Harper says 'no' to Kyoto, 'maybe' to missile defense

[EnviroTO]

But hydro and nuclear energy isn't "green energy" like wind power is. Hyrdo is renewable but not "green". It involves the flooding of rivers/valleys/communities and destroys eco-systems. Nuclear is renewable but not "green energy" either. It prodcues hundreds of litres of waste a year.

Hydro created by waterfalls rather than vast flooded areas is definitely renewable and less environmentally damaging than gas power plants, oil power plants, and coal power plants and it is definitely less damaging than taking a huge area of Alberta wilderness and turning it upside down to get oil out of the dirt which will be used as a non-renewable and non-green power source elsewhere. Most hydro projects in Ontario are not Quebec style James Bay projects. Nuclear power is also cleaner than gas, oil, and coal in that there is no air or liquid pollution since it is self contained. If the government would get off its butt and take spent fuel rods and deprocess them (i.e. the opposite process to the purification of Uranium Ore into Uranium) creating a less harmful substance than they originally started with and put it back into the ground where they got it from the waste would be near zero. It isn't as good as solar or wind which are renewable but it is better than any Alberta pro-oil or pro-gas plan. If we are taking about reducing air pollution Ontario will be far ahead of Alberta in terms of meeting Kyoto targets when McGuinty powers of the coal fired plants before this decade is out.

Well the current one is one built for every developed country in the world and assumes they're all the same. I know, and I think everyone here will tell you too, that Canada, Russia, the UK, Germany, Iceland, and every other country that signed on is completly different. Not only in population, but in terms of the industries that they rely on.

Yes, the countries are all different and the targets are based on where each country was in 1990 and a reduction based on a percentage. Therefore the type of country Canada is (i.e. resource sector and manufacturing in a cold winter and hot summer climate) would be related to the greenhouse emissions Canada had in 1990 and a percentage reduction would be fair in most ways except immigration.

The Ontario and Federal Liberals are giving huge incentives and tax breaks to car companies that locate plants in the province.

I agree That is why the Green party is completely against that and that is why I am voting for them rather than the Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP. Auto sector and oil sector are the last sectors that should get government support (I don't think businesses including farms or fishermen should get any support other than loans). Do you think Harper will penalize the oil sector being from Alberta?

Ontario will turn off coal fired power plants in the next few years. Ontario is rushing to do its part in meeting Kyoto targets with a number of wind farm projects proceeding. Why are we bailing out on Kyoto now? Why take the pressure off? If we don't make the target after giving it a full effort then so be it but why quit without trying?

 

[cacruden]

Most hydro projects in Ontario are not Quebec style James Bay projects. Nuclear power is also cleaner than gas, oil, and coal in that there is no air or liquid pollution since it is self contained. If the government would get off its butt and take spent fuel rods and deprocess them (i.e. the opposite process to the purification of Uranium Ore into Uranium) creating a less harmful substance than they originally started with and put it back into the ground where they got it from the waste would be near zero.

Well, I think we can partially agree with this. I would have set aside a chunk of one years surplus and invested in building 4 new nuclear power plants

 

[Mislav]

Layton said he wasn't aware the Shouldice Hospital north of Toronto was private when he went for his hernia surgery, and he emphasized that the treatment was covered by the public health system.

Maybe I've been living under a rock but we have private hospitals?

 

[adma]

Shouldice isn't a general hospital. It specializes in hernias...

 

[blixa442]

Everybody knows it's the best private hernia clinic in Canada.


The funny thing about Kyoto, besides the fact that Martin was against it three years ago, is that even if all the countries were to meet their targets it would have no environmental effect whatsoever.

 

[jeicow]

Maybe I've been living under a rock but we have private hospitals?

Over 50% of MRI clinics in Ontario are priavte.
They're the private type of clinics that the conservatives support, where OHIP pays and the user doesn't give any money towards the prodcedure.

 

[Brighter Hell]

jeicow - wind power in canada is in its infancy. the fact that alberta has more now doesn't mean much when the wind power that's currently installed is the tip of the iceberg of what's to come. ontario and quebec have so much wind power proposed and under construction that in a year or two they'll each have several times the wind capacity of alberta.

current and proposed wind power by province

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

This is nothing more than a way to create some multi-billion dollar contracts for defense companies.

Not at all. The technology was achieveable in the 1950's. The early 1960's era Nike-Hercules had a single-shot probability of kill of 0.89 vs an MRBM. ie if you fired one it had an 89% chance of intercepting an inbound missile. Today's techology is far more capable. especially if given assistance by nations like Canada. We have the geographical position to make the systems a lot more accurate.

The reality is, if the day ever comes were Intercontinental missiles are being fired on the United States, then some defense shield, which, many have say may not even work, is going to mean nothing.

Wrong. The dynamics of the decision making process inherent in nuclear warfare mean that the only chance you've got of stopping a war once an inbound is detected, is to shoot it down. Even a limited system will help in that. Keep in mind there are nukes pointed at us too.

The day we see war escalate to that level you can basically guarantee that devastation that ensues and the warfare that is released, will be nothing short of catastrophic.

And the only way of guaranteeing that war will escalate to that level is to not have a working defence system.

Kevin

 

[cacruden]

Over 50% of MRI clinics in Ontario are priavte.

Well, I am not going to lie like Layton did I confess.

I went to a private MRI clinic in Buffalo -- rather than possibly wait forever up here .... Cost $450 USD.

Regular Price $800
minus $350 (Canadian Discount) -- i.e. paid by someone that is not insured.

Of course, now I will not be able to run for office

 

[ganjavih]

$450 US? That's less than I thought it would be... I thought it was around a thousand bucks a few years ago. If I couldn't get a timely MRI up here I'd go to Buffalo too... and I wouldn't let it stop me from running for office. :evil

 

[EnviroTO]

The funny thing about Kyoto, besides the fact that Martin was against it three years ago, is that even if all the countries were to meet their targets it would have no environmental effect whatsoever.

Huh? You reduce waste, reduce CO2 emissions, and it has no effect? Of course it has an effect... it has the effect that you reduced waste and CO2 emissions. What do you mean?

 

[cacruden]

$450 US? That's less than I thought it would be... I thought it was around a thousand bucks a few years ago. If I couldn't get a timely MRI up here I'd go to Buffalo too... and I wouldn't let it stop me from running for office. :evil

The nice thing about it was I called on friday -- and I had my appointment that saturday

 

[jeicow]

Huh? You reduce waste, reduce CO2 emissions, and it has no effect? Of course it has an effect... it has the effect that you reduced waste and CO2 emissions. What do you mean?

Not my statement by I'll give my 2 cents.

The fact that only 56 of the 156 countries that signed on are obliged to reduce emissions. All the others (including China/India) fall under the 'Developing Nations' category so they don't have to do anything anyway. China and India are two of the fastest growing nations, and will soon pass most Western Nations in term of pollution generated. Most of the "developing nations" have already alluded to the fact that once they fall under "developed nation" status they will ditch Kyoto. I recall one top Chinesse official saying this already, and a few smaller nations officials saying this too.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

jeicow:

The reality of climate change won't differ just because some official decide on whether they're a developed nation or not. If China thinks she can avoid the issue, recent experiences in pollution en masse should prove be a rather grim warning. I might add, unlike most Western nations, China, India and the like is far more dependent on environmental stablity given the sheer population density and scarcity of natural resources.

AoD

 

[ganjavih]

Huh? You reduce waste, reduce CO2 emissions, and it has no effect?

What do you mean by "reduce waste"?

The Kyoto Protocol does have flaws and its minimal effect on CO2 emissions even if completely implemented is one of them. Those against it saying that it would represent a huge cost with minimal impact have a point.