GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[amnesiajune]

Why is it a great leap backwards? We already pay for a different quality of service. People at Dundas West chose between UPX and the subway. Long Branch between the GO and a streetcar. And many of those who chose the higher priced version would rather drive than be stuck on the lower quality service.

Go Transit shouldn't cost more than the TTC for trips within Toronto, and you shouldn't have to pay extra to use Go Transit as part of your transit trip in Toronto. The current system is stupid. Let's not make it even more stupid.

So i'm proposing to create this differential throughout the entire system. Hopefully to attract the more affluent who currently drive to work but would be willing to take a higher quality service. And they would pay full cost (or greater than cost) to (1) subsidize the rest of us and (2) increase the frequency of service. If you wanted to use a GO Train for a TTC fare you could hop on the cheaper fare car and stand most of the way. If you were stressed out after a long day of work and needed to relax you could pay to get a premium seat on the subway. ... Canada is about the only country in the world where there is this belief among progressives that the entire public should have identical service for everything. Many more progressive countries have tiered transit systems.

I don't care if other countries have stupid practices. We should have one transit system for everyone, not a fancy train for the rich and a crappy train for the rest. If having a fancier, more comfortable ride than everyone else is important to you, don't take public transit.

 

[muller877]

I don't care if other countries have stupid practices. We should have one transit system for everyone, not a fancy train for the rich and a crappy train for the rest. If having a fancier, more comfortable ride than everyone else is important to you, don't take public transit.

So you are proposing the same fee. So you get the same quality. All the chairs are ripped out of the GO Trains and we will be left with standing room only trains to ensure the subsidy is not insane (and there is enough capacity for the additional users).

Then what will people in Kitchener do on the way to Toronto? They will drive.

Great outcome!

Or do you have a solution for that?

 

[amnesiajune]

So you are proposing the same fee. So you get the same quality. All the chairs are ripped out of the GO Trains and we will be left with standing room only trains to ensure the subsidy is not insane (and there is enough capacity for the additional users). Then what will people in Kitchener do on the way to Toronto? They will drive. Great outcome!

The fact that you need to distort what I'm saying and put words in my mouth says a lot. I haven't said anything about removing seating from Go Trains, and as anyone who uses them knows, there already is quite a bit of standing room on the lower levels (there could probably be a bit more to be honest.

I think the fares for long-distance trips on Go Transit are just about right. What I find stupid is that a 20 km trip within Toronto costs $3.00 but a 5 km trip that crosses an imaginary line costs twice as much. And similarly, a trip from Kennedy station to Union costs $3.00 on the red train but $5.00 on the green train.

When we create more separate classes of public transit, we take a step in the wrong direction. Adding a $10.00 gold car to the $5.00 green train is stupid. What's smart is making the green train and the red train both a $3.00 trip, and fixing our fare system so the 5 km trip on a red bus and a blue bus doesn't cost more than the 17 km trip on a green train or two red trains.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The fact that you need to distort what I'm saying and put words in my mouth says a lot. I haven't said anything about removing seating from Go Trains, and as anyone who uses them knows, there already is quite a bit of standing room on the lower levels (there could probably be a bit more to be honest.

I think the fares for long-distance trips on Go Transit are just about right. What I find stupid is that a 20 km trip within Toronto costs $3.00 but a 5 km trip that crosses an imaginary line costs twice as much. And similarly, a trip from Kennedy station to Union costs $3.00 on the red train but $5.00 on the green train.

When we create more separate classes of public transit, we take a step in the wrong direction. Adding a $10.00 gold car to the $5.00 green train is stupid. What's smart is making the green train and the red train both a $3.00 trip, and fixing our fare system so the 5 km trip on a red bus and a blue bus doesn't cost more than the 17 km trip on a green train or two red trains.

GO is already $5.30 for the base fare, which is without the fare by distance (zones actually). So it’s not a double fare, but more like triple+ fare.

 

[amnesiajune]

GO is already $5.30 for the base fare, which is without the fare by distance (zones actually). So it’s not a double fare, but more like triple+ fare.

Cheaper with Presto though. A trip from York University or Kennedy to Union is $5.02 with Presto. Exhibition to Union is $4.71.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Cheaper with Presto though. A trip from York University or Kennedy to Union is $5.02 with Presto. Exhibition to Union is $4.71.

Oh I didn’t know that. Does it still take the base fare and then refunds, or is the base fare lower in some areas?

 

[amnesiajune]

Oh I didn’t know that. Does it still take the base fare and then refunds, or is the base fare lower in some areas?

It's a percentage discount off the entire fare. For adults it's 11% off the fare, with much larger discounts once you've made a certain number of trips (the goal being to mimick the old monthly pass prices). After 40 trips you ride free for the rest of the month.

 

[Leo_Chan]

It's a percentage discount off the entire fare. For adults it's 11% off the fare, with much larger discounts once you've made a certain number of trips (the goal being to mimick the old monthly pass prices). After 40 trips you ride free for the rest of the month.

I guess my limited view on GO with only taking 51 from RHC to UTSC and RH Line from Richmond Hill to Union is giving me the wrong information. I’ve always thought that the $5.30 base fare stayed and the discounts were made on the fare by distance, whether it be a percentage discount or distance subtraction. I knew about the 40 trips per month then free thing though.

 

[ssiguy2]

Going from A to B should be the same price whether you go by GO commuter, RER, subway, streetcar, bus, or horse-n-buggy. Metrolinx should provide the service but let Torontonians decide the best way to get there for themselves.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Going from A to B should be the same price whether you go by GO commuter, RER, subway, streetcar, bus, or horse-n-buggy. Metrolinx should provide the service but let Torontonians decide the best way to get there for themselves.

If that’s how it should be, then be prepared for much higher TTC fares, or significantly increased GO Transit subsides from the province.

 

[amnesiajune]

If that’s how it should be, then be prepared for much higher TTC fares, or significantly increased GO Transit subsides from the province.

I'm not convinced that it would need huge subsidies. Practically noone takes Go Transit within Toronto right now. Making it a part of the TTC network would get a lot of people onto those trains, and it would also get a lot of people who currently have long driving commutes onto public transit.

 

[PinkLucy]

I don't know, I'm always amazed at how many people I see getting on at Exhibition to go to Union.

 

[amnesiajune]

I don't know, I'm always amazed at how many people I see getting on at Exhibition to go to Union.

I think that's a rare exception, because the station is within walking distance of a high-density neighbourhood with otherwise-poor transit service to downtown (just the packed King streetcar). For people in Liberty Village going downtown, the extra cost is $1.70 and they get a <10 minute train ride instead of a 20+ minute standing room-only streetcar. For everyone else, the extra cost is $5.00 or more (soon to be $3.50 or more, but still more than an entire extra fare). Most of the city's Go Train stations are in industrial areas or low-density neighbourhoods, and their only realistic source of passengers is people transferring from TTC buses.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not convinced that it would need huge subsidies. Practically noone takes Go Transit within Toronto right now. Making it a part of the TTC network would get a lot of people onto those trains, and it would also get a lot of people who currently have long driving commutes onto public transit.

GO Transit fare within Toronto starts at roughly $5.30, going up to about $11.00. To get that down to a roughly $3.00 TTC fare would require anywhere from a $2.30 subsidy, to an $8 subsidy. Multiply this by tens or hundreds of millions of trips, and this get very expensive, very quickly.

I'd expect GO RER to be cheaper to operate on a per passenger basis, but considering that RER will be moving 2x (or more) passengers than the current network, we'd still be looking at a massive annual government expenditure to pay for this.

Alternately, the old TTC fares (for buses and rapid transit) could be increased, but I doubt that would be a popular move. The increase would be substantial.

 

[Northern Light]

GO Transit fare within Toronto starts at roughly $5.30, going up to about $11.00. To get that down to a roughly $3.00 TTC fare would require anywhere from a $2.30 subsidy, to an $8 subsidy. Multiply this by tens or hundreds of millions of trips, and this get very expensive, very quickly.

I'd expect GO RER to be cheaper to operate on a per passenger basis, but considering that RER will be moving 2x (or more) passengers than the current network, we'd still be looking at a massive annual government expenditure to pay for this.

Alternately, the old TTC fares (for buses and rapid transit) could be increased, but I doubt that would be a popular move. The increase would be substantial.

Here's where I think charging for parking at GO Stations comes in.

GO currently has a whopping 65,000 parking spaces.

If we assumed a very minimal revenue take; $3 per space for full-day parking, no turnover, no charge for weekend parking etc.

That works out to just over $50,000,000 per year.

If you directly swap that money for reduced fares, on the same day you begin charging for parking, and you drop the 'typical' train trip from that station by roughly the same price that achieves many policy goals

It makes walking/cycling or taking local transit to GO more attractive as that price does not change.

It reduces future cap-x on parking garages and the like.

It also reduces the sticker price for GO trains, so it ends up a wash for the car-commuter, but a material reduction for those connecting to GO by other means.

If applied equitably, it would leave GO short, in so far some stations have no parking, yet would still benefit from a fare-cut.

But if you make minor tweaks and add only a modest subsidy increase it becomes very feasible.

Minor tweaks would be that instead of taking a flat $3 off the base fare across the board, you do a blended price cut that would make it less at say Danforth/Exhibition and more elsewhere, by shaving say $1.25 off the base fare, then shave the rest off distance/zone premiums.

Likewise, you could also vary the parking price to market conditions, with a price as low as $2 at a rural station, but as high as $5 at a high-demand location.

$50M plus goes some distance.

The only thing is, if this were done, and ridership did spike as a result, there would be a need for additional subsidy to cover additional service.