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GTHA Transit Fare Integration

It's not that drivers don't think of the cost... its just that drivers are paying the cost regardless. A quick trip barely costs anything outside of the cost they are already paying as the owner of a vehicle.

Ie. I drive to meetings at City Hall because parking costs me the same as a return trip via TTC. The extra costs of driving are not a factor, since I'm paying those costs even if my car stays parked at home. The convenience of driving outweighs the extra few cents I'm using in gas to get there and back.
A few extra cents? Depends how far I suppose - if you are only driving 3 blocks perhaps. A 20-minute trip is easily going to burn a couple of litres of fuel - that was $3 until recently. And that doesn't even get into the other consumables, or the extra maintenance, depreciation (which is higher if you have more km), or the extra insurance you need to carry if you are using your car frequently for work.

Personally, with a Metropass it's an easy choice. And besides, why would I want to be driving my car when I could get some exercise, and read something.
 
It's not that drivers don't think of the cost... its just that drivers are paying the cost regardless. A quick trip barely costs anything outside of the cost they are already paying as the owner of a vehicle.

Ie. I drive to meetings at City Hall because parking costs me the same as a return trip via TTC. The extra costs of driving are not a factor, since I'm paying those costs even if my car stays parked at home. The convenience of driving outweighs the extra few cents I'm using in gas to get there and back.

True. If you're already paying the insurance, and if you know where you can get away with parking free, the only real cost is fuel. Which is depending on the vehicle, how you drive, and how far you're going - is usu pretty minimal. So at the end of the day, it's still cheaper to drive in many instances.

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I'm wondering how this potential switch to distance-based fares will change the ridership modelling dynamic of the Big Move and particularly Line 1 ridership. Obviously a lot less people will be riding rapid transit than previously envisioned if they have to pay more. So perhaps an endgame in all of this is for the Prov to not have to build any more subway projects. Or any more in Toronto.
 
A few extra cents? Depends how far I suppose - if you are only driving 3 blocks perhaps. A 20-minute trip is easily going to burn a couple of litres of fuel - that was $3 until recently. And that doesn't even get into the other consumables, or the extra maintenance, depreciation (which is higher if you have more km), or the extra insurance you need to carry if you are using your car frequently for work.

Personally, with a Metropass it's an easy choice. And besides, why would I want to be driving my car when I could get some exercise, and read something.

Considering I can fill up my tank for $35 every 2 weeks, $6 is way more fuel than a 20 minute trip will cost me. The insurance and maintenance costs don't change with that extra 20 minute trip. Exercise and reading are great, but I get that in anyway with the time I save by driving :p

I was using transit much more when Presto had 2 hour unlimited and unrestricted transfers. Today, I'm back to walking or driving for my short trips, and the choice is dependent on the amount of time I have, and the weather - not the cost.
 
True. If you're already paying the insurance, and if you know where you can get away with parking free, the only real cost is fuel. Which is depending on the vehicle, how you drive, and how far you're going - is usu pretty minimal. So at the end of the day, it's still cheaper to drive in many instances.

*
I'm wondering how this potential switch to distance-based fares will change the ridership modelling dynamic of the Big Move and particularly Line 1 ridership. Obviously a lot less people will be riding rapid transit than previously envisioned if they have to pay more. So perhaps an endgame in all of this is for the Prov to not have to build any more subway projects. Or any more in Toronto.
reminds me of the argument when they wanted to ban smoking in bars and restaurants - "we will loose business and have to shut down, etc, stc

Lets substitute distance base faress or zone, "we will loose customers, more congestion on roads, , yada, yada, yada,'

And it sure will not be cheaper to park in toronto especially heading midtown and downtown. For short distances, to go 2,3,4 stops on a subway, $3.00 is too much
 
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Considering I can fill up my tank for $35 every 2 weeks, $6 is way more fuel than a 20 minute trip will cost me.
Every 2 weeks? Good grief ... is it a very small tank?

The insurance and maintenance costs don't change with that extra 20 minute trip.
When I pay my insurance, they ask how many km I drive a year, and print that on my policy. If I was driving frequently, I'd be paying higher insurance (and when I stopped driving to work, it went down). Given that maintenance is done every X km, I'm not sure how driving doesn't add to maintenance cost. And the large costs (breaks, timing belt) are certainly a function of usage and distance. Unless perhaps you are like me, and only bring it in once a year, because you figure that's the longest it should go, and you still haven't hit the number of km to the next service.

Exercise and reading are great, but I get that in anyway with the time I save by driving
Save time by driving downtown? I've only really done that in the middle of the night. If I pop into the office at midnight to grab something, I'll drive. But otherwise there isn't that much saving. I'm only going to go a bit faster than the streetcar, and probably have to find a spot, and then spend the time to pay for it, and walk, rather than just walking off the streetcar into the building. And then there's the time to get the snow off the car this morning ...

And of course accidents. Used to be a fender-bender every 2-3 years on average (mostly not my fault - though a couple were). Haven't had one since I stopped driving to work nearly a decade ago.

the choice is dependent on the amount of time I have, and the weather - not the cost.
I still think you are choosing to ignore many of the marginal costs of car ownership. And I just don't understand this lack of care about those costs, but great concern of the pittance of a $2.90 (tax deductible) fare.
 
I wish people would stop deciding whether to drive or take transit simply based on how much it costs them, or how many minutes it might save them. Do drivers ever consider the fact that their choices contribute to traffic congestion and air pollution, especially when they drive downtown? A streetcar with over 100 people can be delayed because of one driver waiting to make a left turn. The less cars on the road the better.
 
I wish people would stop deciding whether to drive or take transit simply based on how much it costs them, or how many minutes it might save them. Do drivers ever consider the fact that their choices contribute to traffic congestion and air pollution? A streetcar with over 100 people can be delayed because of one driver waiting to make a left turn. The less cars on the road the better.
Agreed. In the middle of the day it's shocking that some folks are so utterly self-centred that they think it's okay to drive a short distance downtown for a meeting, when there are other good options.

This only makes life worse for the rest of us, slowing transit, making essential deliveries later, etc.

We need to find a way to rid our society of such antisocial deeds. Perhaps zoned congestion charges like London are the answer. If it cost $20 to drive a car into the core, that should discourage those that don't need to be doing it.
 
Every 2 weeks? Good grief ... is it a very small tank?
Yes, plus I get good mileage and don't drive far

When I pay my insurance, they ask how many km I drive a year, and print that on my policy. If I was driving frequently, I'd be paying higher insurance (and when I stopped driving to work, it went down). Given that maintenance is done every X km, I'm not sure how driving doesn't add to maintenance cost. And the large costs (breaks, timing belt) are certainly a function of usage and distance. Unless perhaps you are like me, and only bring it in once a year, because you figure that's the longest it should go, and you still haven't hit the number of km to the next service.

Try changing your mileage and tell me how your insurance rate changes. (hint: it wont. I went from driving to/from Mississauga to a 15km commute and the rate didn't change at all because it was still within the same km range)


Save time by driving downtown? I've only really done that in the middle of the night. If I pop into the office at midnight to grab something, I'll drive. But otherwise there isn't that much saving. I'm only going to go a bit faster than the streetcar, and probably have to find a spot, and then spend the time to pay for it, and walk, rather than just walking off the streetcar into the building. And then there's the time to get the snow off the car this morning ...

It takes me less time to drive to City Hall than it does for me to get to the subway, even at 6:30 when I leave to get to a 7pm meeting. Driving also takes me directly to City Hall so I can avoid the walk from Queen Station. It gives me enough time to get home from work, have dinner, and still make it to the meeting on time. With transit, I have to skip dinner.

And of course accidents. Used to be a fender-bender every 2-3 years on average (mostly not my fault - though a couple were). Haven't had one since I stopped driving to work nearly a decade ago.

I still think you are choosing to ignore many of the marginal costs of car ownership. And I just don't understand this lack of care about those costs, but great concern of the pittance of a $2.90 (tax deductible) fare.

I have a clean driving record. No accidents in my 10+ years of driving.

It's not a lack of care of the costs of driving. Its the fact that im paying those costs whether my car sits at home or not. If Im already paying $150 a month in insurance, $70 a month in gas, why not get my money's worth?
 
And for the record, im always reverse commuting, which makes the choice easier for me. I wouldn't dare attempt driving if I was commuting the other way.

Everyone has their unique situation. In my case, driving does make sense when I want to. Raise the price of parking, or lower the cost of transit, and you will have me choosing transit more often.

Until then, my choice revolves around the convenience of getting from point A to B in the least amount of time and effort.
 
Try changing your mileage and tell me how your insurance rate changes. (hint: it wont. I went from driving to/from Mississauga to a 15km commute and the rate didn't change at all because it was still within the same km range)
I changed mine from 15 km to 5 km, and my rates dropped (because it was less than 10 km). I thought that was the lowest rate possible, but a year or so later I was discussing with them, and if I only drove once in a blue moon, they'd consider that I didn't use it for work purposes, and it dropped again.

It takes me less time to drive to City Hall than it does for me to get to the subway, even at 6:30 when I leave to get to a 7pm meeting. Driving also takes me directly to City Hall so I can avoid the walk from Queen Station.
So you choose to inconvenience us all to save a few minutes?

I have a clean driving record. No accidents in my 10+ years of driving.
You've been lucky. Twice I've been hit, just parked on a residential street. One hit and run, sat on a red light, in a turning lane. Lost threewindscreens and once a side window, simply driving along the 401 from stones (well the windscreen were stones - I have no idea why the passenger-side back window imploded all over the inside of the car while I was driving). Once a new tire blew-out just driving along the 401 (no damage other than the tire - but a lot of lost time). Another time I got a flat on the Gardiner (big nail - not the best place to get a flat! Didn't save any time that trip ... lol). Another time the new battery went dry on the 401, and I had to ditch it in the gravel on the left in heavy traffic, while losing all the power breaks, steering, etc (turned out the mechanic had misdiagnosed the alternator fault). Not one of these I had any fault on; all cost a lot of time to deal with. And also a couple of fender-benders on the 401 - one of which I had no fault, another I had some technical fault, and I foolishly failed to see a concrete pillar in The Bay garage at Yonge-Bloor once about 25 years ago, and another time a decade ago I made an error on an off-ramp and scraped a street light.

Sounds like a lot, but 40,000 km a year for many years, and well over 30 years of driving, and stuff happens. But I've noticed it's a lot less frequent when I'm only driving 4,000 km a year rather than 40,000.

IIt's not a lack of care of the costs of driving. Its the fact that im paying those costs whether my car sits at home or not. If Im already paying $150 a month in insurance, $70 a month in gas, why not get my money's worth?
And I'm paying $95 a month (it went up, got a new car last year) insurance and $10 in gas. The price difference buys you a Metropass, and gets your car out of my way.
 
My understanding is that they will decide on the fare structure for the GTA as a whole including TTC. The options were presented here.
I saw the presentation but was wondering if there were some actual fare rates options already, but guess not
 
And I'm paying $95 a month (it went up, got a new car last year) insurance and $10 in gas. The price difference buys you a Metropass, and gets your car out of my way.

That's great, but my car isn't in your way. I'd rather spend my 40 minutes driving to/from work vs. 2 hours that it takes me by transit. Give me the extended DRL to Sheppard and I'll change my mind.

Alternatively, make short trips more appealing, and I will ditch the car completely downtown.
 

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