GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Reecemartin]

Reece, who I like as a person...........often speaks publicly without a full understanding of what occurred,

Now, I'm not giving Mx a free pass on anything here............

I'm very familiar with what occurred. I've had innumerable conversations with people over the years about this. I even was close (friends even) with a number of folks that came over from Europe and Asia, realized Metrolinx wasn't going to be a good customer, or even a willing partner and realized their talents were better used, and actually respected elsewhere - the way a lot of these people were treated in this whole situation sickens me.

As for me "often speaking publicly without a full understanding of what occurred" I personally think my signal to noise ratio is substantially better than average, and that its hard to maintain that while also saying a lot - and I can assure that the signal is strong on this stuff.

 

[Reecemartin]

Yeah, I’m annoyed by all the hot takes lately, a big shift from his previous work. But now he’s got a big following, which amplifies these.

But it doesn’t help that Metrolinx and the province are as clandestine as they are to clear things up.

Always something to be annoyed with! I sometimes wish there was more nice to say. But, I'll shut up.

 

[chrisw]

The design and construction portion of that contract, led by Alstom, Aecon and Spanish construction company FCC Group was billed at an estimated $1.6 billion.

That is weirdly way to low. whats up with that

City News also reported on it and they linked to their article in 2022.

Ontario government awards $1.6B contract for 1st phase of GO Transit train electrification

The contract sets up the Ontario government's plan to electrify GO Transit's rail lines. If fully built out, much more frequent service could follow.

toronto.citynews.ca

I'm not sure if it's the cost of the development phase and/or enabling works.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm very familiar with what occurred. I've had innumerable conversations with people over the years about this. I even was close (friends even) with a number of folks that came over from Europe and Asia, realized Metrolinx wasn't going to be a good customer, or even a willing partner and realized their talents were better used, and actually respected elsewhere - the way a lot of these people were treated in this whole situation sickens me.

As for me "often speaking publicly without a full understanding of what occurred" I personally think my signal to noise ratio is substantially better than average, and that its hard to maintain that while also saying a lot - and I can assure that the signal is strong on this stuff.

I too have talked to people inside both organizations.

I endeavoured to send you a message on this, but you have those turned off.

Suffice to say, Its not so much that you're 'wrong'; its that your post doesn't paint a full picture of what happened. I get the challenge in doing that by the way........... I'm not unsympathetic on that point.

 

[Krypto98]

From people I know that work at GO they were proposing some very unrealistic things that with the Transport Canada rest regulations would make the operations very difficult. As a railroader, I probably have a bit of insight of the crewing requirements. For example we can't work more than 12 hours. Allegedly OnX wanted to remove crew bases and travel allowances and have everyone based in Mimico. So if you got called for a Kitchener morning job off the spareboard. Instead of driving to Kitchener, you would first drive to Mimico then take the crew van to Kitchener. Which already eats at an hour of your duty time, in rush hour maybe 2 hours... I don't know how much is actually true or just rumors passed around by crews.

 

[safoosh]

Always something to be annoyed with! I sometimes wish there was more nice to say. But, I'll shut up.

Made an account just to say that I have been subscribed to your YouTube channel since you were around 7k subs and your videos are always something I enjoy and looked forward to watching. With your shift away from making videos I was happy to see that you're letting other transit creators use your platform to promote their work as it was always nice to see you commenting on and giving praise to smaller channels such as transitthinker. Thanks for all the work that you have done!

 

[Bojaxs]

From people I know that work at GO they were proposing some very unrealistic things that with the Transport Canada rest regulations would make the operations very difficult. As a railroader, I probably have a bit of insight of the crewing requirements. For example we can't work more than 12 hours. Allegedly OnX wanted to remove crew bases and travel allowances and have everyone based in Mimico. So if you got called for a Kitchener morning job off the spareboard. Instead of driving to Kitchener, you would first drive to Mimico then take the crew van to Kitchener. Which already eats at an hour of your duty time, in rush hour maybe 2 hours... I don't know how much is actually true or just rumors passed around by crews.

Not sure if you know this, but when GO schedules their employees and assign them trains, do they take into consideration where the employees live? Do they typically try to assign their staff to work the line closest to where they live? Or are there scenarios where a staff member lives in Scarborough, and is assigned the first morning train out of Kitchener, and expected to drive all the way from Scarborough to Kitchener? Then once their shift is done, that same staff member would have get back to Kitchener to pick up their car and drive in afternoon rush hour traffic on the 401 back to Scarborough.

EDIT: I think what's not being talked about enough here is that fact that Federal regulations around rest periods, overtime, & safety for railroad staff essentially made it extremely difficult for DB to implement European best practices for GO. At which point the service can't really be change much from what GO currently offers. Metrolinx must have figured there's little they can do to really shake up GO service because they're hamstrung by federal railroad regulations, therefore it made sense to cut ties with DB.

The question is, why didn't Metrolinx, or the Ontario government, consult with the Federal railroad regulators before bringing in DB and signing these massive contracts? Making grandiose promises about European style passenger rail in Toronto.

 

[SkylineHorizons]

Not sure if you know this, but when GO schedules their employees and assign them trains, do they take into consideration where the employees live? Do they typically try to assign their staff to work the line closest to where they live?

It’s actually the exact opposite. There is zero consideration for where staff live(though, to be fair, very few large employers take this into account). Instead, staff are expected to relocate or commute to accommodate service needs. The frustration arises when significant changes are frequently made to starting locations following service adjustments.

For example, several jobs based out of Kitchener and Barrie were reassigned to Willowbrook in the last couple years due to service changes. The reduction in jobs at those outposts meant that many crew members who had previously started in Barrie and Kitchener now had to drive themselves to Willowbrook, just to work a Barrie or Kitchener job. Then they would begin their shift by driving a company van all the way back to Barrie or Kitchener-I kid you not!! Before operating a train back down to Toronto. After completing their run(s), they would trade off at Union, deadhead to Mimico, walk back to Willowbrook concluding their shift, before driving all the way back home to Kitchener or Barrie. Previously, those same crews would work split shifts: one morning trip from Barrie to Union, and one evening trip back, some times with a short flip added in. But due to increased utlization of trains for mid-day service, the company came up with this convoluted scheduling.

Forsure, changes had to be made because trains that used to sit unused in the yard during the midday between rush hour trips were now being utilized for mid day service. However, the way Alstom went about it not only created massive fatigue on these crews by forcing them to unnecessarily drive several extra hours per day, it also wasted valuable train operating time on van driving. This all could have been resolved much more sensibly had they simply incorporate a private transportation service-which they had done in the past.

Here's an 'example' breakdown of what I mean;

---

Shift Breakdown​

Originally:

• 5:00 a.m. – 9:00 a.m. ("A half" of split shift)
  • Start shift, prep train and leave the layover
  • Operate Barrie to Union
  • Yard train at Willowbrook
• 3:00 p.m. – 7:00 p.m. ("B half")
  • Start shift, prep train, operate from Willowbrook to Union
  • Then Union to Barrie
  • Yard at the layover

Company Changes:

• 3:00 a.m. – 11:00 a.m. (now a Straight shift)
  • Said Barrie crew must now first drive to Toronto
  • Shift starts at Willowbrook
  • Crew drives company van to Barrie (arrive 5:00 a.m.)
  • Prep train and leave the layover
  • Operate Barrie to Union (arrive 7:30 a.m.)
  • Operate Union to Mount Joy and back (arrive 10:00 a.m.)
  • Trade off at Union
  • Deadhead to Mimico
  • Walk to Willowbrook
  • Off duty at 11:00 a.m
  • Crew memebrs drive back to Barrie

Better Alternative Option:

• 5:00 a.m. – 1:00 p.m. (Straight shift as well)
  • Shift starts at Barrie
  • Prep train and leave the layover
  • Operate Barrie to Union (arrive 7:30 a.m.)
  • Operate Union to Mount Joy and back (arrive 10:00 a.m.)
  • Operate Union to Bramalea and back (arrive 11:30 a.m.) - additional flip!
  • Trade off at Union
  • Private taxi/transport service drives the crew back to Barrie

Not only does this Barrie crew save themselves and couples of hours worth of driving time per day, but they'd get an additional train flip out of them rather than that time being wasted just back up to Barrie. Why not just move to Toronto? Because these changes happen all the time. This change lasted for about a year or so before it was reversed. As to what started this stupidity;

-the company(Bombardier at the time) got rid of the private contractor they had taxing crews years ago. Afaik CPKC, CN and VIA crews are all still driven to locations by transportation contractors. Tbf there were many complaints about the service, but there are other companies they could have used, but safe to say they would cost more.
-the company must have figured it was cheaper to make crews drive themselves, even considering they had to buy/leased vans and insure them.
-once the vans were procured the decision was essentially set in stone. And while I don't beleive anything as egregious as the above is happening anymore, many crews still spend countless hours driving vans at the start or end of their shifts.

 

[urbancog]

I found the Star's article about Metrolinx quietly dropping DB and AECON from the O&M contract disturbing. But, perhaps we need to see this in the context of DB selling off both Arriva and Schenker, in allignment with their 2023 business strategy to focus entirely on improving domestic German rail infrastructure and services.

This quote from DB CEO Richard Lutz, on Business Travel News Europe, sums up their strategy, "The sale of Schenker will reduce complexity for DB and allow us to fully focus on our core business".

 

[smallspy]

Not sure if you know this, but when GO schedules their employees and assign them trains, do they take into consideration where the employees live? Do they typically try to assign their staff to work the line closest to where they live? Or are there scenarios where a staff member lives in Scarborough, and is assigned the first morning train out of Kitchener, and expected to drive all the way from Scarborough to Kitchener? Then once their shift is done, that same staff member would have get back to Kitchener to pick up their car and drive in afternoon rush hour traffic on the 401 back to Scarborough.

They can't, nor are they allowed to.

Just like the transit agencies, rostering and the jobs you get are based on how senior you are. I know crews that are quite senior and so are able to pick jobs that allow them to, in one case, walk to work, while in another is able to manipulate his schedule in order to be home to receive his kids when they come home from school.

But the more junior you are - and especially if you are just arriving on the proverbial scene - you will be forced to work wherever the company deems that they need you. and that may mean working out of a base or division on the opposite side of the city.

EDIT: I think what's not being talked about enough here is that fact that Federal regulations around rest periods, overtime, & safety for railroad staff essentially made it extremely difficult for DB to implement European best practices for GO. At which point the service can't really be change much from what GO currently offers. Metrolinx must have figured there's little they can do to really shake up GO service because they're hamstrung by federal railroad regulations, therefore it made sense to cut ties with DB.

I don't think that's specifically true - for instance, I don't believe that the work and rest rules are substantially different there than they are here. A lot of the operational differences are technological.

What they were trying to do was get the regulator to revise the rules in order to maximize their profit. And thankfully, they got zero traction with that.

The question is, why didn't Metrolinx, or the Ontario government, consult with the Federal railroad regulators before bringing in DB and signing these massive contracts? Making grandiose promises about European style passenger rail in Toronto.

Why would Metrolinx or the Ontario Government's business to try and maximize the profit and aid OnXpress's business case? It certainly shouldn't have been their business to know about all of the details of how they were going to go about their objectives, just that they had plans to meet those objectives.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

The question is, why didn't Metrolinx, or the Ontario government, consult with the Federal railroad regulators before bringing in DB and signing these massive contracts? Making grandiose promises about European style passenger rail in Toronto.

Who is to say they didn't? And who is to say that Ottawa hasn't quietly reached a "bright line" - ie knows what conditions they would require to be comfortable with allowing any operator to proceed to 2-person crews with one person in the cab? Ottawa may not be making this prerequisite package public, especially since the railways do not appear likely to meet their terms any time soon. Let a sleeping dog lie with the freight railways and VIA and the unions until there is an actual proposal package that approximates their wishes on the table.

The obvious prerequiite would be having some form of ETCS. Install that, and the regulatory landscape might shift.... but until that happens, the feds will not approve. There may be others, but ETCS is the showstopper that rides over all others. ML is said to be implementing, but clearly it's still years away.

If somebody (at any level) made decisions that crewing regs could be radically shifted before ETCS is up and running, they have been eating the wrong edibles. And clearly not doing their due diligence.... I suspect the feds might be willing to (privately) steer the discussion in that direction, if anybody bothered to ask.

Again, speculating, but with some obvious logical presumption.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I don't think that's specifically true - for instance, I don't believe that the work and rest rules are substantially different there than they are here.

Rules in Germany generally apply to all heavy industry and seem a little stricter than Canada's to me. 8 hours per day (average) with a maximum of 10. Minimum 11 hours between shifts for 6 days, 7th is 24 hours minimum rest. DB's union negotiated a standard 38 hour work-week and is moving to 35 hours: an employee [not DB] may ask for a maximum 40 hours. Extended shift hours are expected to be returned via a shorter shift in the same week. Overtime pay isn't really a thing; all hours are paid the same rate.

 

[SkylineHorizons]

I've never seen any GO train exceed any speed limit. I've seen trains reach 92 mph many times, but I've never seen 93, let alone 94

 

[Northern Light]

Andy Takagi over at The Star is following up on the OnExpress Saga as the Liberals have moved to request the Auditor General do a value-for-money audit on the deal and its un-doing.

Ontario Liberals ask for audit into cancelled GO expansion deal by Metrolinx

Deutsche Bahn and Canadian construction firm Aecon were supposed to operate and maintain the province’s GO train and UP Express network for a multi-decade-long term starting on Jan. 1, 2025, but the contract was cancelled with little details.

www.thestar.com

From the above:

The AG is apparently busy.....

The Minister and Mx continue to stonewall:

 

[Sunnyside]

Andy Takagi over at The Star is following up on the OnExpress Saga as the Liberals have moved to request the Auditor General do a value-for-money audit on the deal and its un-doing.

Ontario Liberals ask for audit into cancelled GO expansion deal by Metrolinx

Deutsche Bahn and Canadian construction firm Aecon were supposed to operate and maintain the province’s GO train and UP Express network for a multi-decade-long term starting on Jan. 1, 2025, but the contract was cancelled with little details.

www.thestar.com

From the above:

View attachment 654308

The AG is apparently busy.....

View attachment 654309

The Minister and Mx continue to stonewall:

View attachment 654310

I would say ONExpress being audited is at first strange, seeing as it seemed worthwhile- unless of course you consider how little was actually pinned down for service plans. The lack of specificity, and then saying no to a tear-down rebuild you asked for, does seem wasteful.

Here’s what gets me though- that comes back somewhat to the Liberal’s own GO RER, no? And if not them, then certainly Metrolinx…