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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

amt731_interior.jpg


God that's ugly.

Also recessed lighting is a thing. Enough w/the big ugly fluorescent or LED rows.


That screams cattlecar.

How about we live w/the fact 'nice' commuter service won't break even.....and we just put more leg room and do one side of the car in quads, the other 50% forward facing, 50% rear facing, but not in quads?
 
God that's ugly.
That screams cattlecar.
Phhh...I'd take that any day over what the TTC or most of what GO gives you in terms of seat width and leg room. I'm tall by average standards, and oddly have trouble folding my legs up like pretzels.

The seats in that pic look a hell of a lot more comfortable than what I'm seeing around this town. Who cares if the shoes ain't cool? Do you value your bones and connective tissue? You wear the ones that fit.

The layout looks excellent, not to mention that off-peak, perhaps even in peak, there's space for bicycles and strollers. What a concept...

Surely some in these forums have been down to the US Southwest where they're using BBD DDs? Plush seats, trays in some sections, and each car having dedicated space for bikes. I'm talking The Coaster, Metrolink, et al.

"That screams cattlecar" is exactly what I thought when having to use GO Transit after my visits and sojourns down there. Exactly the same DD coaches, save for the electrics and a few other technical differences, but the sense of making you comfortable was a world of difference.

Edit to Add: Close inspection of the floor ^ reveals that row seating was removed for the bench seating to be installed. This is becoming more prevalent. Crossrail trains, which blow away anything now available in Toronto, have this arrangement that's similar to the TTC Rockets (BBD also) and a hybrid of seating arrangements:
1549822537356.png

Steven Quy
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Crossrail Bombardier Aventra 345005 Interior
 
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Surely some in these forums have been down to the US Southwest where they're using BBD DDs? Plush seats, trays in some sections, and each car having dedicated space for bikes. I'm talking The Coaster, Metrolink, et al.

Last trip to Pasadena, I did an all-day San Bernadino-Oceanside-LAUPT-San Bernadino circle trip, all in Metrolink BBD DD cars. (Not an excursion for the faint of heart, BTW, but I did spend a half hour wading in the surf at Oceanside, which was a nice treat.)

Anyways, the things were worn to the bone, seats filthy to stained in ways that suggested biohazards. Yes they had tables and bike racks, but I wouldn't trade for Metrolinx. We complain about so many things, but the SOGR of the GO fleet is industry best. The tables were quad seating.

What's so wrong with quad seating? Yeah it can be cramped, especially if you have baggage, but it's not intolerable. I have ridden GO too many times to care which way I'm facing. A matter of personal taste, I guess.

- Paul
 
It currently comes from the Bradford train that reaches Union at 6:33, leaving for Malton around 6:55 on the heels of the 6:28 Stouffville arrival leaving for Mount Pleasant to do the 9:00 from there.
They should turn them into super express trains like the ones they have on the lakeshore line
 
Phhh...I'd take that any day over what the TTC or most of what GO gives you in terms of seat width and leg room. I'm tall by average standards, and oddly have trouble folding my legs up like pretzels

Why must we choose perimeter seats in order to get leg room? Why not, as I suggested, just reduced the capacity slightly (remove every fourth quad) and add 25% more leg room? I agree w/the problem you identify, I just don't subscribe to your preferred solution.
The seats in that pic look a hell of a lot more comfortable than what I'm seeing around this town. Who cares if the shoes ain't cool? Do you value your bones and connective tissue? You wear the ones that fit.

Again, being selfish here, but I'm thinking we can swing both. Comfort and style. Should not be an either/or choice.
Crossrail trains, which blow away anything now available in Toronto, have this arrangement that's similar to the TTC Rockets (BBD also) and a hybrid of seating arrangements:

1549822537356-png.173533


This does look much better. I particularly like the ceilings/lighting.

Not so sure about the 'poster' level.

My only quibble w/this layout would be the side by side quads don't leave much of corridor/through path. I might be inclined to quad on one side and single-pair on the other...
 
What's so wrong with quad seating? Yeah it can be cramped, especially if you have baggage, but it's not intolerable.
The tables were quad seating.
Think about it. I don't know how tall you are, but I have long legs. With the table, you can put them under it. What a concept. And the person opposite can do so also. With the BBD DD, there's the problem one side of the utility service conduit one side, the hump that steals what little foot you have, and forces you to keep one leg almost a foot higher than the other so as not to have to site sideways. And then there's the problem of rubbing legs with the unknown female opposite. Some like it, some don't. I'd rather not find out through chance and an alleged #metoo moment. It's awkward, to say the least. Seating pitch on the Metrolinks, unless changed since I was last there, was much greater than GO. And the Coasters were even more, with even more room for bikes on each carriage. I don't know what state of upkeep there is on the Metrolink stock, but the Coaster claims a higher one. The region served has a considerably higher average income.
Anyways, the things were worn to the bone, seats filthy to stained in ways that suggested biohazards. Yes they had tables and bike racks, but I wouldn't trade for Metrolinx.
We complain about so many things, but the SOGR of the GO fleet is industry best.
? I think you'd best talk with some of the European riders on that one. Had an at-length one with an Austrian just two days back on that. GO would be 'acceptable' to many world travellers, but 'nothing to write home about'.
Again, being selfish here, but I'm thinking we can swing both. Comfort and style. Should not be an either/or choice.
I do also, which is why I posted the Sydney examples. Sydney trains, btw @crs1026 , truly put GTHA ones to shame. Most Aussie ones I'm aware of do. But they are generations ahead in electrification and devotion to realizing rail is a much better way to serve transit.
My only quibble w/this layout would be the side by side quads don't leave much of corridor/through path.
That pic had a spatial distortion to it, watch this:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ossrail-trains-with-fewer-seats-a3119346.html

Some TfL stock will be all bench seat for some of the shorter services, Thameslink, which is a separate National Rail franchise, is also using a version of a very similar layout, (Albeit it's a Siemens make) and the Moorgate line (both 25kVAC OHE and 750VDC third rail hybrid) is different again. The seat layout in all cases is optimized for length of travel and peak crush handling.
[...]
The fleet of 66 trains, being made in Derby by Bombardier, will have a mixture of “metro-style” seating seen on the London Overground and “bays” used on the Metropolitan line.

A TfL spokeswoman said the new Crossrail trains would have 454 seats, compared to 632 on existing eight-carriage trains to Shenfield. She said passengers would have a similar chance of getting a seat as the Crossrail services would be more frequent.

The new carriages will be walk-through and equipped with free WiFi and access to 4G. At 200m long, the 90mph trains will be more than 50 per cent longer than the longest Tube train.Transport for London said the interiors had been designed to create a “welcoming environment”, with darker floors and natural colours that will “wear in, and not wear out”. There will be four dedicated wheelchair spaces on each train, and fold-down seats to accommodate prams and luggage. [...]
link above

As per EXO's seating on their DD stock:
[...]
There are 643 of these coaches in service as of 2015 on NJ Transit, Exo, and MARC. NJ Transit received 429 cars, including 62 cab cars, while Exo's predecessor, Agence métropolitaine de transport (AMT), received 160 cars, including 26 cab cars. The MARC order consists of 39 trailers and 15 cab cars.

The coaches have a two-by-two seating arrangement and more knee and leg room than single-level coaches. The seats are also bigger and it has 15-30% more seating than on single-level coaches. The intermediate levels have 5 inward-facing seats on each side which flip up for wheelchairs or bicycles. On cab cars, a large equipment locker behind the cab replaces one row of seats. There are single-width side doors at intermediate levels for high-platform loading, and similar doors outboard of the bogies except at the cab position on cab cars. The latter doors of NJ Transit coaches have stepwell trapdoors, allowing these doors to be used for both high and low-platform loading. Exo coaches have one-piece end doors without traps, which can be used only for low-platform loading. There are also an automated announcement system and LED destination screens.
[...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_MultiLevel_Coach

It seems some agencies realize the need for more leg room. Now getting backing to flying economy class...
 
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Here's something to put things into proportion for those now having to stand more than an hour on GO train service (which is quite a few destinations. It takes almost two to get Union to K/W in peak). The following touches on what RER (or whatever the latest name to avoid it is) is going to have to be.
Adam Forrest
Wed 7 Sep 2016 15.03 BSTLast modified on Fri 11 May 2018 13.09 BST
[...]
Theatre manager Martin, 42, travels on the new Thameslink train from Brighton to London Blackfriars at rush hour each morning. “The new train feels quite odd because it’s one long tube-type carriage,” he says. “If I do get a seat, the lack of tables makes trying to get any work done on your laptop really awkward and difficult. And if I don’t get a seat and I’m forced to stand, it’s not any more comfortable than standing on the old train – you’re still jiggling around the doorway for an hour and 20 minutes.

“I can remember when the old train had a buffet cart about a decade ago,” he adds. “It feels like they’ve shaved off all convenience since then.”

Many of Britain’s long-suffering commuters have become familiar with huddling in squashed doorways. But does Thameslink’s new metro-style train, with extra standing space formally agreed with the manufacturer, signal a national trend towards a new kind of standard? If we are now expected to do without a seat or the luxury of being able to work on trains, is the comfort of the commuter being downgraded – despite billions being invested in new train stock?

“It’s a sign of the times,” says British transport blogger Simon Smiler. “It’s a trend in a lot of cities where they’re trying to make sure a large number of people can travel quickly and easily through the city, as well as in and out of the city.

“Connecting up suburban trains into your transit system isn’t easy,” he adds. “But the metro-style trains aren’t really suitable for long journeys. People still like a seat and somewhere to put their coffee. So you can understand the frustration if people are forced onto a mobile sardine tin for over an hour to get to work on time.”



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The new Class 700 train on the Brighton to London route
The fleet of Class 700 Thameslink trains, commissioned at the cost of £1.6bn and now running through London on the Brighton to Bedford route, closely resemble the short-hop trains typical of urban transit systems. They have fewer seats than conventional suburban commuter trains, wider doors, wider aisles – and a lot more space for standing passengers.

In addition, all the tables have been removed from standard-class carriages, making working difficult for many passengers on journeys in and out of London that can run close to two hours.

Chris Page, a director at the campaign group Railfuture, points out that whereas the previous incarnation of Thameslink trains had 798 seats, the replacement class has only 666 seats.

Operator Govia Thameslink Railway says there will be an overall increase in seat numbers because of the increased frequency in trains as more rolling stock is added over the next two years.

“You don’t want standing to become a long-term solution to capacity problems,” says Page. “The risk is that it will become the norm for these longer journeys. If you’re commuting for over an hour and you’re paying a lot, it’s not unreasonable to expect a seat and a table.”

Commuters and campaign groups are worried Govia’s new class of high-capacity, metro-style trains is helping normalise standing on long rail journeys.

Between now and the end of 2018, 115 of the German-built trains will be introduced on Govia’s Thameslink and Northern services on routes as far out of London as Cambridge and Peterborough, as well as Brighton and Bedford – journeys that typically take well over an hour.

It follows London to Essex operator c2c introducing its own metro servicelast year, refurbishing 20% of its trains by stripping out seats, creating more standing space and introducing overhead hand straps to help pack in 150 extra passengers on rush hour services.

Commuters coming into Birmingham, the UK’s second biggest metropolitan area, are also likely to experience the subtle shift towards a metro-style, cattle-class journey soon.
[...]
Other growing cities around the world face the same question: how do you balance the needs of commuters making long journeys to and from the city, with the need to deliver more frequent, “turn up and go” stopping services inside city boundaries?
Toronto’s GO commuter system has seen significant overcrowding in recent years, with many travellers in the Greater Toronto area forced to stand on 30-minute journeys downtown. The GO operator’s goal is to provide seats for 80% of its peak time passengers, but it achieved only 66% at the most recent count.

Melbourne’s Metro commuter network has addressed rising numbers by ripping out seats on its oldest fleet to create more standing space, leaving close to half of passengers standing when trains are at peak capacity. And the Bay Area Rapid Transit system, serving San Francisco and Oakland commuters on the US west coast, has also reduced seating and added overhead hand straps.

So how long is it reasonable to ask passengers to stand? Many European countries such France, Italy and Spain don’t have to regulate for standing times on longer distance journeys because those trains don’t cater for unreserved passengers, so everyone has a ticket and a seat.
[...]
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...ube-style-standing-up-future-commuting-london
 
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Here's something to put things into proportion for those now having to stand more than an hour on GO train service (which is quite a few destinations. It takes almost two to get Union to K/W in peak).
From what I've heard from people riding those trains, and looking at the recently published numbers, they most certainly aren't standing-room only arriving at or departing Kitchener! A 12-car train seats over 1,500 people. Kitchener only has 237 passengers all day on all the trains combined. These trains are mostly empty!

Kitchener, Guelph, Acton, and Georgetown combined are only about 1,200 passengers a day - which can fit on a single train. And yet there are 7 trains a day to Georgetown.

Who is saying they have to stand for one hour on GO trains? Looking at these numbers, perhaps some have to share a quad seat occasionally for over an hour!
 
Who is saying they have to stand for one hour on GO trains?
Read the news at all? Follow the links provided? Read Metrolinx' own report referenced?

You can start here:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=over...19j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Before I moved back to Toronto from Guelph, I could *never* get a seat on the last late afternoon train to Guelph from Bloor, except once reaching Georgetown. And that happened daily for five days a week. Standing room only, if that. Always got a seat coming in from Guelph however. My story is far from being unusual. And Kitchener at that time was a two hour ride away. I leave the math to you...
 
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From what I've heard from people riding those trains, and looking at the recently published numbers, they most certainly aren't standing-room only arriving at or departing Kitchener! A 12-car train seats over 1,500 people. Kitchener only has 237 passengers all day on all the trains combined. These trains are mostly empty!

Kitchener, Guelph, Acton, and Georgetown combined are only about 1,200 passengers a day - which can fit on a single train. And yet there are 7 trains a day to Georgetown.

Who is saying they have to stand for one hour on GO trains? Looking at these numbers, perhaps some have to share a quad seat occasionally for over an hour!
My experiences are that some cars on EB rush hour trains are standing room from Brampton in to Union, mostly all cars are standing room from Bramalea into Union....and definitely all are standing room/crush loaded from Malton in.

WB, I don't think I have ever been on a train where seats did not open up after Bramalea......so, at most, people are standing for 40 - 50 minutes.
 
Read the news at all? Follow the links provided? Read Metrolinx' own report referenced?

You can start here:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=over...19j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Yes some people have to stand leaving Union station (though my personal experience wading through all the standees at Union, is that there's often at least one empty seat on the top floor ... and other empty seats if you walk further down the train).

However you stated that people are standing for an hour. There's nothing in anything that you've linked that supports that. Everything I've heard is there are plenty of seats available for much of the ride to Kitchener, even on the most crowded trains. There is no one standing at the one hour mark - or even after Bramalea most of the time. It's less than 40 minutes from Bramalea to Union.

Why are you claiming otherwise?

There were, I admit, reports that on the previous timetable of people not able to board - but that's not reflective of the timetable that takes effect this week nor how far they had to stand.
 
I recall from my GO commuting days on the Stouffville line that the end cars on either end of the train almost always had seats while the middle cars were nearly full. My (albeit more limited) experience with the Toronto subway is the same - the end cars are never quite as busy.

And yes, for the stouffville line, there were typically seats after Agincourt at latest. occasionally it took to Milliken. Certianly never to Stouffville, by then the trains were mostly empty.
 
I recall from my GO commuting days on the Stouffville line that the end cars on either end of the train almost always had seats while the middle cars were nearly full. My (albeit more limited) experience with the Toronto subway is the same - the end cars are never quite as busy.

I think that would vary by line as the station layouts are quite different. So, for example, the far west cars of the Kitchener trains are quite popular with people who use the Brampton station as the west end of the platform is closest to, both, the south parking lot and the west tunnel to the north Parking lot. Similarly, the middle cars are very popular (crammed) as a lot of the Bramalea folk congregate around the middle (i think it gives them the easiest exit from the current platform) and the Brampton folk that use BT like to be just east of the accessibility car to have the quick exit down the stairs to the bus terminal.

I am sure there must be similar preferences on all lines dependent on the station layouts.
 
I think that would vary by line as the station layouts are quite different. So, for example, the far west cars of the Kitchener trains are quite popular with people who use the Brampton station as the west end of the platform is closest to, both, the south parking lot and the west tunnel to the north Parking lot. Similarly, the middle cars are very popular (crammed) as a lot of the Bramalea folk congregate around the middle (i think it gives them the easiest exit from the current platform) and the Brampton folk that use BT like to be just east of the accessibility car to have the quick exit down the stairs to the bus terminal.

I am sure there must be similar preferences on all lines dependent on the station layouts.
For Malton its 6th car from the locomotive for the bus station, and 9th car for the parking lot.
For bramalea usually its 1st and 2nd for bus station. 4th for the north parking lot. 7th for the South Parking lot(before construct began)
Etobicoke North it's the furthest from the locomotive that is closest to the parking lot.
Guelph, I believe it's the same as etobicoke north.
Brampton, usually it's the 8th coach for the parking lot or 3rd for the bus terminal.
Georgetown I'm not too sure but it's near the cab car I believe
Kitchener Go it's near the accessible coach and 4th car ish.
Mount Pleasant it's near the 9th or the 1st coach for the stairs.
 
Kitchener can be car 2/3 as well, pending on if you want to go into the station. Car 1 will drop you at the fastest, although not official, path to the remote parking lot up Victoria or bus stops (not safe in the Winter).
Acton it's cars 2/3
Georgetown can be cab car for north parking lot or 4/5 for south parking lot.
 

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